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  1. Senior Member
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    #1

    Default Suggestions/Advice pls

    hey Yall..

    I understand having 2800s for the ccvp lab is preffered. however, as most of us here, i am trying to keep things relatively under budget..

    for my previous certs, i have the following equipment to work with..

    UC520W
    2650xm
    881W
    3524 inline
    2960TT
    -----------------

    can i get by with adding addtional 2600's with 2mft, nm-2v, dsps etc.. or should i just save up and go with 2801's 2811s and lock that into the ccie lab ?

    I do plan on adding an Adtran 550 for my pstn cloud along with a 3550/60s...if the 2600 is not a wise option, then how about the 1760-v ? I do like the 2600s a lot for some reason.. =D and im sure i would liek the 2800s even more!

    I have read through the faq and numerous other threads and im seriously torn right now..

    thanks yall!
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  3. Senior Member
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    #2
    I guess it always depends on what your long term goal is, what routers you can get your hands on, and of course your budget.

    I'd love to have a rack full of 2811's (or even one for that matter), but having reached the exam prep stage for CVOICE, I can say that they aren't necessary so far, but would be good for future proofing your lab. I'll go that way eventually once the price drops when the 2900 series becomes more main stream. I've worked through with a 3725 as HQ, 3 x 1760's as branch offices, another 1760 as my frame relay switch and a 2691 as my PSTN simulator, all kitted out with either E1 or T1 PRI. For switches I'm using a 3550PWR and a 3524PWR.

    I've always been partial to the 1760 myself, it got me through CCNA (with some 805's and an 801) and on through CCNA-Voice. Its a very versatile router and a poor man's 2801.

    Unless you already have the AdTran, using a router as your PSTN simulator means you learn a lot more when it comes to digit manipulation (more than is healthy too, I sometimes think).

    I'm sure pitviper and others who are further down the track can shed a lot more light on things.

    You've a UC520... luxury!
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    #3
    i might end up selling the uc520 but since it has so much already i might just keep it. other people i have been talking to say are telling me if im going to buy, i might as well just buy up to the ccie level and be done with it.. i do plan on going ccie route..

    thanks for your input!
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  5. Senior Member pitviper's Avatar
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    #4
    I started the CCVP track with a few 26xxXMs, 1760s, MC3810s, and a UC520W – I ended up selling the UC and used the proceeds towards some 2811s. The UC is fantastic as a standalone device, but not really capable of being fully integrated with a Cisco Call Manager. I’m pretty sure that its IOS doesn’t support MGCP and SRST to name a few.

    The 1760s probably yield the best ”bang for the buck” for the CCVP track with the biggest pros being native DSP support and increased flash (over the 2600XMs). They can take forever to boot though.

    The 2600XMs will work, but end up being much more expensive in the long run to use them for things like conferencing and PRI termination (which is a must) – these items will require voice carrier modules and the last time that I checked, at least the ones that can be used for conferencing (the ones with the PVDM2s on board) were big bucks. Also, unless you luck out and get some with 48M flash modules be prepared to boot the IOSs from a TFTP server as soon as you need to add things like music on hold files, CME GUI, and phone loads.

    While not completely necessary, the 2800 routers really shine when you get into the CIPT1 & 2 material. Some of the items that are testable are based on the newer DSP chips (PVDM2) – things like DSP farms, media termination points (primarily for RSVP), and conferencing (this is the big one). The older CLI syntax on the 1760 is quite a bit different for these items.

    Also +1 on the Cisco based PSTN cloud (assuming that you don’t already have access to the Adtran). Lots to be learned there that will help with the studies.
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    #5
    Pit... i have read a lot of your responses.. i have been told many times to go with 2811s... if you say the same, which i see, then im gonna take your word.

    i dont have the adtran.. but it looked like a nice peice of harware to have. whats a good solution for the cisco based pstn.. so far what i have noticed are the IAD's ...and from what azaghul mentioned 2600 pstn?

    whats it take or what do i need exactly to setup a cisco based pstn .. considering i already have a 2650xm.. what extra modules do i need to convert that to a pstn ..

    since im trigger happy.. im gonna with the 2811 setup.. looking to get 3 of them should be sufficient, right ? 1 HQ , 2 Branch .. 1 pstn (2600?) and from some of the examples i have seen, a frame relay cloud is needed.. what type of hardware should i use for the frame cloud?

    yes.. a lot of questions.. i appreciate the responses dearly.


    thank you.
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    #6
    For the WAN cloud with frame-relay, I'm using a 1760 with 2 x WIC-2T's. As pitviper said, they are slow to boot, but do the job.

    For the PSTN cloud I've used a 1760 with VWIC-2MFT-E1, VWIC-1MFT-T1 and a PVDM-256K-20. Due to hardware limitations the E1's were PRI and the T1 was CAS. The 1760 also has a really "different" way of setting the clocking.

    My current PSTN cloud is a 2691 with VWIC-2MFT-E1, 2 x VWIC-1MFT-T1 and an AIM-ATM-VOICE30 supplying DSPs (with the VOICE30 you can run E1/T1 voice in the WAN slots). You can get E1/T1 crossover cables on eBay. Thinking of adding a NM-2W to combine PSTN and WAN in one device. You'll want CME installed as well so you can have a SoftPhone for PSTN phone numbers.

    Pitviper... I'm looking at completing CVOICE in the next few weeks and moving on to CIPT1, what commands in particular did you come across that were needed? I know DSP resourcing is different between 1760's and more main stream routers, hopefully the commands are supported on the 3725.
    Last edited by azaghul; 03-22-2010 at 02:19 AM.
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  8. Senior Member pitviper's Avatar
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    #7
    Nice to have some new blood on the CCVP side of things

    You actually have a lot of options for the PSTN cloud. Ultimately you’re going to want to terminate at least 1 voice T1 PRI (2 if you’re following the IE blueprint) and a voice E1 as well. Analog in the cloud is optional but all you need to do is add some FXS ports, and connect them to your branch office FXO ports.

    The budget solution would be a couple of MC3810s with voice T1s/E1s (and maybe an FXS or 2 for the PSTN phone – I doubt that the 3810s can run CME). Middle of the road would be a 1760, or 2600XM setup (azaghul did a nice job of covering the 2600 series PSTN setup/hardware above) and then of course the 2800 for the top of the line single router solution (you'll see this in most of the vendors CCIE lab hardware lists).

    The IADs are nice, but pretty pricy seeing that they are still in service by a lot of ISPs – and only the real expensive ones have the DSP resources for T1/E1s. You can certainly luck out and steal one cheap if you’re persistent though – I snagged an IAD2431-16FXS (1 voice T1/E1 & 16 FXS ports) a few years ago right around Christmas time for $120 = probably due to a little bit of luck and the crappy economy. The big reason was that it gave me an excuse to add a telco 66-block to the lab!

    As for equipment (if you do decide to pickup some 28xxs), check out the various vendor sites – most of them list the required hardware for their lab workbooks. They all pretty much call for 2 branch office sites and 1 HQ router (you can easily go cheap with the options above for PSTN setup). My current CCVP/CCIE:V setup is based loosely off of the ccbootcamp’s recommended hardware list (at leat for HQ, B1, and B2). Also others will mention rack rentals - might be worth at least looking into. I like to have the equipment available for studies 24/7, plus if I need to test something out for work, I can setup the configs in the lab ahead of time and play. Frame-Relay router can be just about anything that you can add a bunch of serial interfaces too. I’m running an old 3640 with 2x NM-4Ts, and an NM-32A – It doubles as my frame relay cloud and access server.
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  9. Senior Member pitviper's Avatar
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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by azaghul View Post
    Pitviper... I'm looking at completing CVOICE in the next few weeks and moving on to CIPT1, what commands in particular did you come across that were needed? I know DSP resourcing is different, hopefully the commands are supported on the 3725.
    Here’s a good example of an enhanced IOS conference bridge (2811 or NM-HDV2) vs a standard IOS conference bridge (1760 or NM-HDV):

    http://www.techexams.net/forums/ccvp/48630-dspfarm.html

    If I recall correctly, the examples in the CIPT1 book, and definitely in the CCIE material focus on the enhanced bridges. I think that if you can get the older conference bridge setup, from the call manager side of things you can do pretty much what you need to – just note that the exam may refer to the enhanced CLI syntax. Media termination point setup is different as well though I never tried to configure it on a 1760.
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    #9
    Thanks for that info, I always try to keep one eye out on whats needed for the next cert, so that when I get there I'm (at least sort of) prepared.

    Looks like I got lucky again, my 3725 with NM-HD-2V will support enhanced IOS conferencing. I'll just need to unjack the 4FXS or 4FXO to release the DSPs.
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    #10
    Thanks guys.. appreciate the feedback.. getting a better idea now ..

    looks like my tax return will be going towards three 2811s with whatever modules needed.

    now can i use my 2650 and combine pstn and frame into it ? or should i just get another 2600 and split frame and pstn ?
    Last edited by tokhss; 03-22-2010 at 07:36 AM.
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    #11
    ok, did some more looking around.. those atm-voice add in cards arent expensive at all.. under 100 bucks in some cases..

    looks like i may go this route ..

    3 - 2811's (1HQ/2 BR) + pvdm2's / serials / mft's /fxs)
    1 - 2650 (frame cloud bunch of serials)
    1 - 26xx (pstn aim/e1/t1s)


    hows this sound guys? feel free to make some modifications.

    gonna sell the uc520w on ebay.. there back up above 2k now =D

    thanks!
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  13. Senior Member pitviper's Avatar
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    #12
    For the AIM make sure that it's not the ATM version.

    You may be able to do a single router setup - I don't think that the NM-4T is supported in the 2600s (it's not listed as a supported platform under the NM detail page) but you may be able to add an NM-2W and 2x WIC-2Ts. Check the site first to see if those WICs will work in the 2W.

    The 520s are backordered something like 60 days from Cisco - good time to sell. I needed one for a quick setup and settled for a 2801 voice bundle because we couldn't get one in time.
    Last edited by pitviper; 03-23-2010 at 05:28 AM.
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    #13
    really? not the ATM version.. which one should i be looking out for?

    im gonna split up the functions between 2 -2600s anyway..

    what are your thoughts about NM-HDV + vwic2-2mft ...

    ebay has one with 4x pvdm-12s with an inserted VWIC-1MFT-T for $185... i can prob do that + get a 2mft and be set for the pstn side right?
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    #14
    There are 3 AIM's to choose form, but only 2 of use to us (and only in 26xx or 36xx routers);

    AIM-ATM, no good for voice (ATM only)
    AIM-VOICE30, supports up to 30 channels of E1/T1 (in my case its split between 2 E1's and 2 T1's)
    AIM-ATM-VOICE30, combines both in the one card

    Just be aware that the AIM's only support E1/T1 voice DSP functionality in a WIC slot ONLY. They can't be used (as far as I know) for other DSP resources or to support voice services in a network module, but they are good for a PSTN cloud.

    I'd go with the 2650xm for the PSTN, as it has the capacity for more flash/dram to run CME. Just use lower end router for frame relay. I'd personally combine PSTN and WAN, it's one less router making a noise in the background.

    With the NM-HDV, from memory I think it only has one slot for a VWIC so you'll only be able to run either E1 or T1. Probably not a biggie if you are only doing CCVP, but if going further....
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    #15
    right, the NM-HDV has only 1 slot built in for a card.. i was thinking i can run a vwic-1mft and the other 2 slots on the 2650 i can use a 2mft and maybe a 2port fxo ?

    thereby, combined total 3 t1's for example and 2 fxo ports? . since it has 4x pvdm12 modules loaded, i think that should be enough for lab testing?
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    #16
    The native WIC slots on the 2650 don't support VIC cards (FXS, FXO, E&M), these would need to be mounted in a NM. However (yeah, there's always an exception) the WIC slots do support VWIC-xMFT's in data mode, and also in voice mode with the addition on an AIM-VOICE.

    If you put the VWIC's in the router and the FXO in the NM, you should(?) be able to use the unused DSP's in the NM for transcoding/conferencing.
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    #17
    ahhhhh.. ok gotcha! ..

    so sounds like i need the following ..

    NM-HDV w/FXS card
    2mft card
    1mft card
    AIM30 module

    correct me if i am wrong.. but the above should get the 2650xm inro a pstn solution..

    however. if i choose not to add in a FXS card in the 2650.. then i can just ditch the AIM30 module, right ?
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    #18
    Almost...

    On the 2650 PSTN...
    in WIC slot 0: 2MFT (needs AIM30 to work here)
    in WIC slot 1: 1MFT (needs AIM30 to work here)
    AIM-VOICE30

    On the 2811 HQ...
    xMFT (connect to the PSTN router)
    FXS (analog phones)
    FXO (connect to the real PSTN for testing)
    PVDM2-x

    Branch routers would be similar to the HQ, but the FXS/FXO are optional. I'd drop the NM-HDV. Maybe add an E&M for practice.
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    #19
    cool.. thanks!
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    #20
    last question..

    is there any specific reason why the CCIE lab requires 2811's? .. since im building out my lab.. for the ccvp and ccie.. can i just get by with the 2801's?

    im ready with purchasing now (tax returns) and sold my uc520w (miss it already).
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    #21
    Currently, you probably wouldn't "need" 2811's for the CCVP, but as they (and later models) support the new IOS v15 it's a way of future proofing your investment. But the current exams seem to be built around IOS v12.4T

    Would I "like" to have 28xx's, 3750's and UC5xx to play with? Sure... but they are not yet 100% required, or affordable.

    Having done CCNA-Voice, CVOICE and now part way through CIPT1, if you were really stretched you could get this far with just a 1760, a 3524-PWR, some IP & analog phones and a CUCM cluster in VMware.
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    #22
    i see some tricked out 1760-v's on ebay for like 4xx bucks. would rather spend a bit more for 2800. honestly, yes. future proofing is what im looking towards.. i think the 2801's should be fine.. i was just curious as to why cisco choosed 2811 and not 2801 for the ccie labs/tests.
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  24. Senior Member pitviper's Avatar
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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by tokhss View Post
    i see some tricked out 1760-v's on ebay for like 4xx bucks. would rather spend a bit more for 2800. honestly, yes. future proofing is what im looking towards.. i think the 2801's should be fine.. i was just curious as to why cisco choosed 2811 and not 2801 for the ccie labs/tests.
    I think that the 2811s are more common in mid-sized branch deployments. I went with the 2811s because A) I work with them a lot in real life, B) I like the added NM/NME slot, C) the 2811, 21, and 51s run the same IOS images - the 2801 runs and IOS exclusive to the 2801 and D) The fans in the 2801s are considerably louder then the 2811s. That being said they should work exactly the same in the lab. Luckycharms is using mostly 2801s in his lab: 85 Days until my CCIE VOICE LAB
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    #24
    wow.. i just read the whole thread.. i didnt know the 2801s had their own ios compared to the 2811+ ... however, yes, i might end up getting a 2811 for the HQ and do the 2801s as the branch offices..

    thanks for your input pitviper.
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