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  1. Woohoo! It's over 1000!
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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Iristheangel View Post
    I know this from experience from failing both MS and Cisco exams and going back weeks later to find the same questions being asked.
    See, I wonder if they actually do ask the same exact questions, or just questions that are very similar. Because if someone has just memorised the questions and answers, a small change in the question (or available answers) could trip them up. But to someone who knows their stuff it would just be like "deja vu", since you are focussed on the meaningful parts of the question.

    It's one small thing you can do to make dumping harder, whilst not making it much harder to generate questions or be unfair to legitimate test takers. Like changing the subnets or IPs in a question, or changing the config change needed from R1 to R3, or where you need to "select all correct" options and just change the number of right options.

    I think you probably don't need a huge pool to make things comparatively harder to dump than study legitimately for most people. I think maybe 500 questions, maybe even a couple of hundred, with small changes in lots of them. I think Cisco and MS do a pretty good job at this, although I think MS includes more arcane questions than Cisco.
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  3. Senior Member mbarrett's Avatar
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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by evarney View Post
    I do believe though that the dump community has made the tests more expensive by causing the vendor to have make the test more resilient to cheating.
    It's just human nature to find the path of least resistance. And someone will always find a way to capitalize.
    I'm reminded of those MIT blackjack players who used their math background & applied it to the casino game as a way to make millions...the casinos responded by increasing the size of the playable card pool to several decks, which effectively reduces the odds someone gets through card-counting to the point where it isn't worth the effort.
    That analogy doesn't really fit the testing problem because you can't just add 1000's of test questions without running into problems.
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    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by gilesjp View Post
    Welcome to IT. Its not just dumpsters but its all the con artists out there certified or not who somehow smooze their way into a gig. Many people are in IT who can't subnet or work from a cli to save their lives, GOD forbid they learn to write a line of code. They get over by falling into a gig that uses 5% of the OS software 95% of the time. They are the ones who screw up every project and fight change tooth and nail.

    I've done IT for 25 years and have seen pure genius slave away in cubicles for pennies and morons make millions and retire.

    Just keep your head up and be the best you can be. You are not going to overcome politics, fear, and the insecurities of others just by being an excellent technician. As you gain experience in this field you will learn that IT just like any other field is 90% social and 10% skill.
    Top notch post.

    Only focus on the items you can control and everything will take care of itself, it always does.
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  5. Completely Clueless TechGromit's Avatar
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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Iristheangel View Post
    0K questions that are constantly needing to be flushed and reupped every 2-3 years when the exam is refreshed is a hard endeavor to do (not to mention the amount of SMEs to come up with 10,000 *entry level* questions) much less make it practical for folks to actually pass the exam.
    I really don't think it would be necessary to flush 10k questions, just remove questions that cover old material and add new questions so the exam is updated to cover new topics. The questions could be organized by topic so when you want to say remove all the token ring related questions and add in IPv6 questions, it just removing the topic instead of filtering all the whole database to find outdated questions. In time, yes there would be a brain dump for all of your 10k questions, but if you want to memorize 10k questions, instead of learning the material, be my guest. You just need to raise the bar so it's more work to cheat than it is to learn.

    Maybe the simple solution is to make the while test a simulation. Configure a switch with these specifications. Or tell them this switch it's working, fix it, allow them to log into neighboring switches to look at the settings, but not change other switches. I guess the same problem would occur, how many unique simulation problems could you come up that will not be added to brain dumps.
    Last edited by TechGromit; 12-11-2016 at 07:07 PM.
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  6. Roaming teh Bytes OfWolfAndMan's Avatar
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    #30
    I can agree it is unquestionably frustrating. In regards to employees weeding out themselves from a job through poor output or technical skill set, I'd say it depends on company culture and if favoritism is present. There are plenty of incompetent folk not going anywhere because they have that in even though their day to day skills require refinement.

    Sometimes these things resolve through managers saying bye, or maybe through an ignorant action done on the employee's part. Sometimes it doesn't work out that way and they float through their job, offering minimal value, yet somehow sticking around. In this situation, you gotta deal with it sometimes. Keep improving yourself, don't look back, and learn what you can from those that are competent. If you have to work with that person and they are about to get you both into something bad, speak up. Say something. Unless of course you can convince them otherwise.
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  7. Cisco addict
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    #31
    Figured I was going to keep this quiet, but might as well ask how do you deal with this?

    Management, supervisors, and other engineers have mentioned in casual water cooler talk they found the answers to a palo alto cert, they found a cert dump to cisco, fortinet, and other vendors proprietary certs. The things I don't understand about this, is do they believe the cert will get them in a higher position? You actually have to understand the technology, fortune 500 company will not hire you for a position just because you have a few certs.

    Frankly, I keep going and am now looking at other vendor certs as most on here, it isn't because a cert will get you another job, why not learn something new and keep your gears spinning rather than studying test questions for a month... Ridiculous in my opinion, but it is the IT field and is quite common
    Last edited by SpetsRepair; 12-11-2016 at 08:44 PM.
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  8. Are we having fun yet? UnixGuy's Avatar
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    #32
    Don't waste your energy on other people (i.e. don't waste energy on what you have no control over).

    Just follow your path and do your own thing, your success and journey is what really matters
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  9. Senior Member
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    #33
    Being technical is important but so are soft skills such as communication and presentation skills.
    Anyway, here is a joke I took from the net to loosen everyone

    A turkey was chatting with a bull. "I would love to be able to get to the top of that tree," sighed the turkey, "but I haven't got the energy. "Well, why don't you nibble on some of my droppings?" replied the bull. "They're packed with nutrients." The turkey pecked at a lump of dung and found that it actually gave him enough strength to reach the first branch of the tree. The next day, after eating some more dung, he reached the second branch. Finally after a fourth night, there he was proudly perched at the top of the tree. Soon he was promptly spotted by a farmer, who shot the turkey out of the tree.

    Management Lesson: Bullshit might get you to the top, but it won't keep you there


    source: Management Lesson Joke - Animal Jokes
    Last edited by Mike7; 12-12-2016 at 11:44 AM.
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  10. The ceiling is glass. PJ_Sneakers's Avatar
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    #34
    You know, people get university degrees this way too.

    You can hit the books, study your ass off, write badass essays and pass. Or you can hit the bank, ATM your ass off, and pay someone else to write your papers.

    It's pretty commonplace in colleges now. Some studies suggest as much as 75% of college students admit to cheating.

    In the end, if you know it, you know it. If you don't, you don't. Life's not fair, but I do believe in karma working like a marathon instead of a sprint.
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  11. Senior Member kMastaFlash's Avatar
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    #35
    The people that dump won't have the technical knowledge when it comes to the interview or even the real job. They won't last long. Keep your head up and continue to do things ethically! Everything they do will catch up to them at one point or another!
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  12. Cisco R00t Clan Member NOC-Ninja's Avatar
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    #36
    I wouldnt worry about it. Interviews usually ask about your knowledge and experience. You cannot stop people from doing what they want to do even though its wrong. Cheating has always been there.
    You see arnold using steroids and winning those mr universe competition. You have these politicians taking money from other countries when they are running in the office. You have people getting into their spot not because of their knowledge but because they know the people inside, thats cheating too. How about a kids parents are genetically smart or strong so the kid becomes smarter or stronger than other kids? Would that be cheating too?


    Hell even celebrities sleeps with their producers just to get the spot.


    So where do you draw the line? its up to you. its up to the other person.
    Cheating or not cheating, the person will still have to study to be able to design, configure and troubleshoot the network.


    Id suggest use your pain to study more.
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  13. Passion For IT
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    #37
    Also, I've found that a common thing around these forums and other places - you find someone with the passion for the industry, and they won't be dumping. They'll WANT to learn the material because they enjoy it. They love learning new technologies. Sure, it can get you a better job. But, it's fun. It's interesting. It's freaking awesome when you learn something and you can save the day with that knowledge.

    Have fun. Those dumpers probably aren't having much fun doing their jobs.... I have fun daily at work.
    A few certs here and there and everywhere...
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  14. Completely Clueless TechGromit's Avatar
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    #38
    Quote Originally Posted by SpetsRepair View Post
    The things I don't understand about this, is do they believe the cert will get them in a higher position? You actually have to understand the technology, fortune 500 company will not hire you for a position just because you have a few certs.
    Certifications get you past the HR filter, if your lucky, your interviewer will not be technically savvy and you'll be able to BS your way though an interview. If you have the technical knowledge that goes along with certification, will will not have to rely on luck and BS to get you though an interview. I had a co-worker that had a CCNA, initially I was impressed, but it quickly became apparent he really didn't have the understanding he should have had if he really earned his CCNA. I was one of the people that was proof checking his switch configurations before he was allowed to deploy them. After several screw ups, he no longer works with the company.
    Last edited by TechGromit; 12-13-2016 at 02:13 AM.
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    #39
    To stay sane I recommend only using the certification as a guide to learning material that you are already interested in. It is actually useful that someone has already made a list of relevant material for you, instead of you having to compile this list yourself. Also try to be at least slightly above the level of the highest level of cert that you have, and you won't run into the problem of being seen as a weak candidate relative to your credentials. I've asked people that interview people and what they tell me is that the technical skills of candidates vary a lot, and this means that you will stand out if you study seriously.
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  16. Junior Member
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    #40
    The people you refer too are called paper techs. They memorize a book and pass a test but have no real world experience.

    You must grind and poush your resume when I first started I didn't even have a cert yet but I pounded the pohone books calling every where I could almost begging for a job just to get my foot in the door in the industry. I got lucky and someone gave me a chance. It also didn't help one of my best friends was a Cisco engineer I could piuck up the phone and call and ask questions to and advice from at any time.

    If you can get the experience to back it up the certs are fine. But mainylk are just a resume booster. Cert or no cert if yoiyoiu get an interviews and yoiu k now your stuff and you make them see you know it then you will get hired.

    Confidence ,presentation are everything in almost all walks of life.
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    #41
    Don't worry too much about those people who brain dump. Focus on building a robust, in-depth you and the technical interview types will pick up on that. I know this guy I work with and he has no certifications but he is one of the smartest people I've ever met in this industry. His collection of knowledge is wisdom.

    I used to work in an MSP and you could see the guys who brain dumped stuff. Anything remotely tricky and they'd be escalating it immediately. You'd get the "I don't know this software, why am I fixing it". The smart guys would dig trying to figure it out & understand the problem.
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    #42
    I'm hoping technical certifications become more lab focused. The example you provided would make a great CCNP lab question (use basic troubleshooting to determine if its the switch, SFP, or the fiber run that is the cause of issues). I just passed CCNP Switch and I thought the labs were way better for testing real world knowledge than most of the multiple choice questions.
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  19. Completely Clueless TechGromit's Avatar
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    #43
    Quote Originally Posted by SpetsRepair View Post
    Management, supervisors, and other engineers have mentioned in casual water cooler talk they found the answers to a palo alto cert, they found a cert dump to cisco, fortinet, and other vendors proprietary certs. The things I don't understand about this, is do they believe the cert will get them in a higher position?
    Actually it might. I knew a guy who worked in Florida used a program called Mercury Test Tools, now called Quick Test Professional (QTP), he was earning around the mid-40's salary wise. He paid a couple of thousand dollars for training and got himself a Mercury test tool certification. All his co-workers thought he was crazy wasting his money, but after he got his cert, he listed it on a job board and was picked up by the Federal government agency I was working for. He was able to get himself a nice 100k salary, simply because the government required to person that filled the opening have the certification he had. I'm not saying he brain dump his way into the certification, he knew his stuff, but I'm sure plenty of people could have done the job that didn't have a certification just as well, but having the right certification and some experience got him a huge bump in salary.

    When the sequester cuts hit in the 2013, he go a little fearful about his job and listed his resume again on a job board, he was picked up by SiriusXM (a fortune500 company) and was able to keep the same salary.
    Still searching for the corner in a round room.
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  20. Elite Member Params7's Avatar
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    #44
    Quote Originally Posted by xxxkaliboyxxx View Post
    If you want to talk about brain dumping and paper tigers, you should look no further than DoD. Now I can only speak for the Army, since I worked on the uniform and currently on the civilian side. Not only is brain dumping allowed behind closed doors, it's actually encourage. I mean seriously, these guys are getting hired purely on certifications in order to meet DoD requirement (you can tell within 5 minutes who the guys/gals are). Not only that, even when they bring in professional companies to conduct a bootcamp on an Army installations, the instructors are passing out dumps at the end of class. Now would they have the balls to do that without prior approval? I have no idea, but on the Army side you can actually get hired without any actual credentials and they will give you 30 days to pass the exam. If that isn't a undertone to brain dump...
    No wonder these guys are claiming they got hacked by Russians (which I know is all political bull..but if things really are this way in government agencies, it almost makes me wonder).
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  21. Senior Member lucky0977's Avatar
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    #45
    Ya gotta wonder, with so many IT jobs in DOD, why are there so many contractors doing the job the DOD should be doing? Makes you wonder who is better trained or educated.
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  22. Senior Member xxxkaliboyxxx's Avatar
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    #46
    Quote Originally Posted by lucky0977 View Post
    Ya gotta wonder, with so many IT jobs in DOD, why are there so many contractors doing the job the DOD should be doing? Makes you wonder who is better trained or educated.
    Answer is neither
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  23. Senior Member Danielh22185's Avatar
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    #47
    I can for one say I've worked with the dumpers and I see where it gets them (not very far). You will see this in the early stages of your career as an IT professional where it's easy for anybody to cheat an entry to mid-level test and potentially get an entry to mid level job. Most those types of jobs don't have hard requirements for the candidate to get past so it's possible they can regurgitate enough to get an offer. However it will all fade for those people and keep them in the entry to mid level jobs because these people want the easy street.

    I've worked with the NOC rats that have 20+ years of doing the same basic job because they never went after more and only kept renewing their same cert or two via brain dumps. In the end they will always just be that same NOC rat. There are rare cases too where said fool getting promoted either via a buddy club they have going on or because of someone they may know. Mostly I have seen this with middle management. However they still usually get no further than that (middle mgmt) and become institutionalized because they don't feel the need to do anything technical anymore which even further weakens their marketability.

    The moral of the story and my best piece of advice is:
    Stay invested in yourself and do what you are passionate about. The cheaters will only get so far and in the end you will be happy of your commitment to yourself and your accomplishments.
    Currently Studying: IE Stuff...kinda...for now...
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  24. Went to the dark side.... Moderator networker050184's Avatar
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    #48
    People cheat at everything. Just the way it is. Nothing special about cert exams in that regard. Don't let it deter you.
    An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made.
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  25. Happiness is !!!!! MAC_Addy's Avatar
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    #49
    Like networker said, people cheat at everything, that's life. If you go through the process of studying and being able to retain the information, you're golden. When asked by someone you work with, or someone you're interviewing with, they'll be able to tell if you know the material or not. If you're satisfied with your knowledge, you're doing okay
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    #50
    Quote Originally Posted by xxxkaliboyxxx View Post
    It's obvious, he is going to dump his way to CTO!

    If you want to talk about brain dumping and paper tigers, you should look no further than DoD. Now I can only speak for the Army, since I worked on the uniform and currently on the civilian side. Not only is brain dumping allowed behind closed doors, it's actually encourage. I mean seriously, these guys are getting hired purely on certifications in order to meet DoD requirement (you can tell within 5 minutes who the guys/gals are). Not only that, even when they bring in professional companies to conduct a bootcamp on an Army installations, the instructors are passing out dumps at the end of class. Now would they have the balls to do that without prior approval? I have no idea, but on the Army side you can actually get hired without any actual credentials and they will give you 30 days to pass the exam. If that isn't a undertone to brain dump...

    With that said, any company of worth is going to see right through it. Take for example when I interviewed with your search engine. I made it all the way to the final face to face interview and there is no way anyone that brain dump would ever make it that far. They bombarded me with scenario questions for hours. I felt good leaving the interview so I could only imagine that only someone that really knew his stuff would of outshined me for the engineer role.

    Case in point, any job and company of any worth can tell who the fakers are.
    It use to be a person had up to six months in order to obtain the necessary certifications. When I worked for the Army it was up to six months. With where I work now you have to have it by day one. If your certifications lapse, and they find out about it game over you're gone before you can correct the problem.

    I have never taken a certification course offered by the DoD, so I cannot say for certain if they hand out the materials you speak of.
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