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  1. Member fleck's Avatar
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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by skrpune View Post
    My advice to you would be to revamp your resume. It sounds like that 7-year gap is leaving potential employers asking questions, and not the right ones - they're wondering what the heck you've been doing with your time and that's not the thought you want to leave them with after reading your resume. You need to write a dayum good cover letter to explain that you've wandered from the IT track but are now making a concerted effort to get back on that track via furthering your education and certifications. No job is too small or too unglamorous to get your foot in the door. If you need to, take those temporary or contract jobs to build up your experience - it won't pay a ton but it will give you something current to put on your resume.
    Thanks for your thoughts and your time!

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  3. Certification Invigilator Forum Admin JDMurray's Avatar
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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by fleck View Post
    What does becoming certified after all this time say about me to an employer?
    Assuming an employer even knows what "certification" is, it shows that you take an active interest in continued education. Certifications are an alternative to taking college classes; many cert programs offer learning that can't be found in most colleges. Certs are also an alternative to on-the-job experience. In many cases, you can't get the new learning you need from your job or local colleges, and and certs and self-study are your only learning option.
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  4. Member fleck's Avatar
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    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by JDMurray View Post
    Assuming an employer even knows what "certification" is, it shows that you take an active interest in continued education. Certifications are an alternative to taking college classes; many cert programs offer learning that can't be found in most colleges. Certs are also an alternative to on-the-job experience. In many cases, you can't get the new learning you need from your job or local colleges, and and certs and self-study are your only learning option.
    Right, I have the understanding that certification is taking over as the main method of education for professionals in the field today. I definitely plan on making it part of my career to continue obtaining certifications. I am definitely passionate enough and love the technology and the IT community enough for it!

  5. Senior Member sidsanders's Avatar
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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by fleck View Post
    Right, I have the understanding that certification is taking over as the main method of education for professionals in the field today. I definitely plan on making it part of my career to continue obtaining certifications. I am definitely passionate enough and love the technology and the IT community enough for it!
    i wouldnt agree certs are replacing degrees (as/bs)...
    all the job postings i see almost always show degree required with certs sometimes required. they will take exp and a degree over less exp and certs, in my area. certain jobs (mostly cisco) will ask for exp + higher level cisco certs. exchange admin jobs will ask for degree + multiple yrs of exchange + mgmt of a certain # of mailboxes. unix jobs would ask for exp + degree. quick examples i have seen recently.

  6. Member fleck's Avatar
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    #30
    Quote Originally Posted by sidsanders View Post
    i wouldnt agree certs are replacing degrees (as/bs)...
    all the job postings i see almost always show degree required with certs sometimes required. they will take exp and a degree over less exp and certs, in my area. certain jobs (mostly cisco) will ask for exp + higher level cisco certs. exchange admin jobs will ask for degree + multiple yrs of exchange + mgmt of a certain # of mailboxes. unix jobs would ask for exp + degree. quick examples i have seen recently.
    Yeah, pretty much everyone would rather have someone who has a college degree. That is understandable. But realistically, those college grads in computer science end up doing some sort of high-level engineering be it software or hardware. College graduates are seldom seen working PC tech support and help desks. I've seen it, no doubt, a friend of mine spent a hefty sum on private Software Engineering education only to end up in a help desk job for a while, but moving up has been very easy for him. All I'm looking for is a job in computers/IT. And everywhere I take my resume people are like 'Um, OK'. Certification will, I am sure, at least get me looked at and considered, some have already said this in this post. I'm definitely not hoping to be making $60K right out of school or anything, but job security would be nice. And exercising my valuable skills in this field would be a welcome change.
    Last edited by fleck; 09-06-2009 at 05:15 PM.

  7. Senior Member sidsanders's Avatar
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    #31
    you are going to have some comptia certs soon so that will help. dont give up the quest, and it seems you are not. are there any part time gigs you can get where folks can see your skills and give you other chances?

  8. Member fleck's Avatar
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    #32
    Quote Originally Posted by sidsanders View Post
    you are going to have some comptia certs soon so that will help. dont give up the quest, and it seems you are not. are there any part time gigs you can get where folks can see your skills and give you other chances?
    I'm definitely going to make it my full time job to educate myself and try to make my way into some sort of computer-related work. There is a non-paid internship available at the school that I'm debating on, but I seriously need to start making money. I could always use that internship to list as my current 'job' which would make the resume look better. Got a lot of things to consider.

  9. Certification Invigilator Forum Admin JDMurray's Avatar
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    #33
    Quote Originally Posted by fleck View Post
    Right, I have the understanding that certification is taking over as the main method of education for professionals in the field today.
    Well, certs have been gaining in popularity with employers over the past ten years, but the main methods of education--and recognition--is still a college degree and experience, with certs being a distance third place. Only a few highly recognized and respected certs (e.g., CISSP, CISA/CISM, CCIE) can actually attempt to compete with degrees in their respective fields.
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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by fleck View Post
    I'm hoping that I run into an employer/manager that sees that quality in me and picks me because I am a true blooded geek by nature. I have always known things that the certified guys don't. Unfortunately it's a cold world out there and the only way to get an interview is to e-mail a resume, and it has never once worked for me after the big tech crash of 2001. Both of the IT jobs I had from 2000-2002 were because I knew an insider who put in a good word for me.
    The problem with "true geeks" is that they usually lack this thing called people skills and they usually walk around acting like they are so much smarter than everyone else.

  11. Senior Member
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    #35
    Certifications show that you are always learning. If you earned a BS in Computer Science 10 years ago guess what, everything you learned is pretty much obsolete. There's a reason a Cisco cert expires after 3 years. You should always be going for some sort of cert. If you work in this industy for 8 years without earning a single new cert than you're either really old and about to retire or you're just sitting on your loins and being lazy.

  12. Baroo? skrpune's Avatar
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    #36
    Quote Originally Posted by sidsanders View Post
    i wouldnt agree certs are replacing degrees (as/bs)...
    all the job postings i see almost always show degree required with certs sometimes required. they will take exp and a degree over less exp and certs, in my area. certain jobs (mostly cisco) will ask for exp + higher level cisco certs. exchange admin jobs will ask for degree + multiple yrs of exchange + mgmt of a certain # of mailboxes. unix jobs would ask for exp + degree. quick examples i have seen recently.
    agreed - I often see ads asking for degree or equivalent experience AND certifications. The qualifications needed will vary by the company and the type of position you're going after, but I definitely don't think that certs are replacing degrees. However, they are a great way to keep your knowledge current.

  13. Senior Member sidsanders's Avatar
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    #37
    Quote Originally Posted by rwwest7 View Post
    Certifications show that you are always learning. If you earned a BS in Computer Science 10 years ago guess what, everything you learned is pretty much obsolete. There's a reason a Cisco cert expires after 3 years. You should always be going for some sort of cert. If you work in this industy for 8 years without earning a single new cert than you're either really old and about to retire or you're just sitting on your loins and being lazy.
    i would say computer information systems degrees have seen more obsolete aspects than comp sci as cis was tied more to programming langs/databases/current tech (at the time folks took it) which have seen many changes. comp sci is more theory/math and isnt dependent on any set programming lang. algorithm analysis is a good example of that as are many of the theory and logic concentrations. i would say some of this is dependent where you got a degree as well... there are places that had some not so hot comp sci programs for sure. you may have a comp sci degree, i dont know, so no insult intended.

    having seen older folks with and with out certs, i think the last part is a bit harsh. not everyone has the time to work on certs. i have been lucky to be able to continue, though not everyone is in that boat. i will say some folks, old and young, dont care about certs either. they are still able to find work based on the expr they have, which in some ways is a bit annoying.

  14. Alligator wrestler Moderator Plantwiz's Avatar
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    #38
    Quote Originally Posted by fleck View Post
    I hate school and don't want to put effort into subjects that are useless to my career.
    Well,

    Then you need to go into business for yourself.


    TO HATE school as you put it, will be limiting for you career advancements. Certainly, you've thought about this already?

    In any case, you can be an entrepreneur and if you are as good as you say, you'll be fine. You may be eliminated as a contractor on some projects that require you to show your degrees before you bid (we've run into this twice now), but you can certainly do well taking the smaller jobs or jobs that do not question your background.


    Otherwise,
    skrpune comments are spot on!
    Plantwiz
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    ***I'll add you can Capitalize the word 'I' to show a little respect for yourself too.

    'i' before 'e' except after 'c'.... weird?

  15. Member fleck's Avatar
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    #39
    Quote Originally Posted by rwwest7 View Post
    The problem with "true geeks" is that they usually lack this thing called people skills and they usually walk around acting like they are so much smarter than everyone else.
    What you have described here is a 'nerd'. Or better put, an 'elitist', like the comic book guy from The Simpsons. This I am not.

  16. Member fleck's Avatar
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    #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Plantwiz View Post
    Well,

    Then you need to go into business for yourself.


    TO HATE school as you put it, will be limiting for you career advancements. Certainly, you've thought about this already?

    In any case, you can be an entrepreneur and if you are as good as you say, you'll be fine. You may be eliminated as a contractor on some projects that require you to show your degrees before you bid (we've run into this twice now), but you can certainly do well taking the smaller jobs or jobs that do not question your background.


    Otherwise,
    skrpune comments are spot on!
    I hate NORMAL schools. Community colleges filled with cheerleaders and dumb little dipshiis and script kiddies. That's what I hate. I know that the tech school I'm going to is my kind of place, otherwise I wouldn't be going.

  17. Senior Member Turgon's Avatar
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    #41
    Quote Originally Posted by fleck View Post
    I hate NORMAL schools. Community colleges filled with cheerleaders and dumb little dipshiis and script kiddies. That's what I hate. I know that the tech school I'm going to is my kind of place, otherwise I wouldn't be going.
    That's a pretty dim view of the quality of students in Community colleges isn't it?

  18. Baroo? skrpune's Avatar
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    #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Turgon View Post
    That's a pretty dim view of the quality of students in Community colleges isn't it?
    Yeah, I agree. My first reaction to that post was "OUCH!" But then I thought about it, and my next reaction was to feel bad for fleck that this is how he/she feels.

    Honestly fleck, this is not a great attitude. I know of plenty of intelligent folks who attend community colleges, many of whom go on to universities to get their bachelors and beyond. To pigeon hole everyone who goes to communities colleges like that is immature and myopic. You're going to have to learn how to deal with people to succeed in life, and with an attitude like that, a lot of doors will get shut in your face even if you have a killer resume and your diploma and the certs you're planning on - even the most talented people get turned down for jobs if they have such a bad attitude towards other people. I don't mean to be harsh, but it's better you hear this here and have a chance to think on it before you go showing this attitude on an interview or on the job and feeling much harsher repercussions.

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    #43
    To be fair, I'm four times as likely to hook up with a girl from a community college than a "real/normal" college. Their standards clearly aren't up to par...

    In all seriousness, most people just hit community colleges to get the first two years of a four-year degree at a discount, or they're just testing the waters of formal education. Stereotypes are great for jokes, but you do appear to be small-minded if you abide by them.

    As I said earlier, you should research how much value those diploma programs actually have. I wouldn't consider someone with one of those to be at the same level of someone with only an associates, so you really need to determine what those are ultimately going to do for you. If you're just going for the knowledge, by all means, go for it. I just don't think that whatever diploma you obtain is going to be the key to an awesome new career.

    Has anyone else had good luck with diplomas? Maybe my perspective is just skewed...

    And Skrpune, coming from you, harsher repercussions just sounds hot. You've actually done the opposite of dissuading me...

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    #44
    Quote Originally Posted by fleck View Post
    I hate school and don't want to put effort into subjects that are useless to my career.
    Just out of curiosity, what subjects are useless to your career?

    Written communication skills?
    Verbal communication skills?
    Critical Thinking?
    Team Building?
    Strategic Management?
    Statistics?

    I could go on for quite a while, but if you really believe these and other subjects are useless that one would take some of for say an associates degree and more of for a bachelors degree then you could really benefit from expanding your mindset a bit.

    These classes are important, they help hone your soft skills that a lot of people in IT really lack. Business related courses are also incredibly helpful as you will be less likely to bicker and complain when management above you makes decisions you don't agree with - they help enable you to see the macro view rather than just how something affects you.

    I'm not saying you have to take the classes, but I wouldn't completely dismiss the content covered in those classes as it is valuable to your career and if you can work on advancing your skills in the non-technical aspects you would only stand to gain.

    One thing I find ironic though is you state how you hope to be picked out of the group because you are a true blooded geek by nature. There is a response from another forum member stating those people are usually lacking people skills and walk around acting like they are smarter than everyone else. I can't help but get a hint of this attitude from you (just stating my observations here), and the hint turns into a blinding flash of the obvious (thanks Coach Culbertson!) when you state that's not you but go on to stereotype and bash (quite harshly) people who attend community colleges as if you are better than they are.

    At any rate, I would honestly not invest any money into a diploma. It's not going to get you any recognition in my opinion. In fact, here is how I would treat it if you managed to get in for an interview with me.

    Me: "I see you have a diploma in Management Information Systems, is there any reason you decided to not pursue an associates degree or bachelors degree?"

    You: "x" where x = just about any response you can come up with probably won't sound good unless you already had an existing degree which provided your general education credits and your diploma was just to learn the technical side of things.

  21. Member fleck's Avatar
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    #45
    Well mstein, thanks for insulting me, first and foremost. You're a shining example of acceptable behavior. I find it funny the way you act as narcissistic as possible while talking about who 'goes around thinking they're better than everyone else'. But since you spent a lot of money on your education, you must be. You're exactly the type of person I would never want to associate with, much less work for, so we don't have a problem there. Have a nice day.
    Last edited by fleck; 09-07-2009 at 08:32 AM.

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    #46
    Quote Originally Posted by fleck View Post
    Well mstein, thanks for insulting me, first and foremost. You're a shining example of acceptable behavior. I find it funny the way you act as narcissistic as possible while talking about who 'goes around thinking they're better than everyone else'. But since you spent a lot of money on your education, you must be. You're exactly the type of person I would never want to associate with, much less work for, so we don't have a problem there. Have a nice day.
    Wasn't meant as an insult, just my observations.

    I never claim to be better than everyone, or anybody. Ignore the paragraph with the comments about your view of those that attend community colleges and re-read my post. I am actually genuinely trying to be helpful, because you sound like a smart person but the path you propose to take I think is going to hold you back.

    I really do question the value of a diploma versus a degree, and if a degree is an absolute definite no for reasons you have already stated then I would quite honestly forgo the diploma and strictly focus on certifications on your own study time.

    I checked out the place you are attending, to be honest it seems to be on my first look to be one of those "get yourself a very lucrative IT career" training centers. From what I see they claim you can complete your education in less than one year. In that year you are going to earn your A+, Network+, Security+, MCSA, MCSE, and CCENT? Sounds exactly like a "fast path to a lucrative IT job" training facility to me, those pop up all over the country and promise the world but you are rushed through things so fast I question how well the information is retained. I also question the study materials at places like that and would advise looking into them. I know through associates in my area that one such facility near here that operates with a similar business model utilizes brain dumps. On top of that, and this is just my nitpicking - but I would expect any place that I do business with, at least of the amount of money you are probably investing, to have a decent professional looking website and not something that looks to be thrown together over a weekend: FastTrain Technical Certification Computer Training Courses

  23. Member fleck's Avatar
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    #47
    Well, the school is actually decent once you make contact. They've been in the state of Florida for years now and have several locations. I did look into the school and they have had their problems in the past, especially with a specific campus that had bad equipment and people who apparently didn't care. Things are a lot different now and the school has good relations with local companies.

    I did notice that the web site was atrocious, but I visited the sites of a few local Certification training companies and I was reminded that educational institutions are famous for their simple and unpleasant looking web pages. Their catalog and other documentation are sophisticated and professional. Maybe if I take on the internship there I will see if they're working on a revamp of the site and offer a hand in it.

    The curriculum is a bit better than you would think. It's way better than a $6,000 1-week boot-camp training for a single cert, and people do that all the time. Here we go through several weeks of class, and there are several classes before you're expected to be ready for a certification test. There are 17 classes for 68 credits total; a hefty 918 contact hours over the next year, and I'm ready to meet the challenge. It was mentioned to me that some students do tend to require longer than a year. I don't plan on being one of those students.

    I'm confident that with this school's skilled and caring staff, adequate equipment and local corporate connections it will be possible for me to begin a career.
    Last edited by fleck; 09-07-2009 at 03:52 PM.

  24. Went to the dark side.... Moderator networker050184's Avatar
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    #48
    I'm going to have to agree with msteinhilber on that school. I'd avoid it like the plague. Even the name sounds suspect to me.
    An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made.

  25. Member fleck's Avatar
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    #49
    Quote Originally Posted by networker050184 View Post
    I'm going to have to agree with msteinhilber on that school. I'd avoid it like the plague. Even the name sounds suspect to me.
    Well just read my post man. The school might not look or sound like much but when you go in it's for real. They have clout in the area.

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    #50
    Isn't that quite a bit of certifications to obtain in a year?

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