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  1. Security Nut NightShade03's Avatar
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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by phoeneous View Post
    What would you suggest as the most beginner friendly nix?
    Ubuntu hands down.
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  3. Senior Member loxleynew's Avatar
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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by sidsanders View Post
    what type of exp on unix are the jobs you are looking at requiring (certs, degree, c/c++/etc)? note that adding users/backups/etc will be diff then supporting dev folks (core dump analysis, compilers, etc). curious since not all folks enjoy programming and at times unix support may require it.
    Mainly support developers. Side note I hate programming beside the occasional VB or batch scripting which hardly counts lol.
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  4. Senior Member loxleynew's Avatar
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    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by phantasm View Post
    Do a command line install of Gentoo. You'll learn more about Linux in those 6hrs then you would in a month with Ubuntu. lol.

    Gentoo Linux Documentation -- Gentoo Handbook

    Gentoo Linux -- Where to Get Gentoo Linux
    So basically it helps teach you the commands for *NIX that Ubuntu wouldn't because Ubuntu is more "user friendly"? On a side note this may sound dumb but why memorize hundreds of commands when you can just look them up later? I know some of them would come in handy and are necessary to remember but just like dos many of those commands are pointless remembering besides when you need them?

    I guess ^^ is my lack of understanding but just curious before I dive into the world of *NIX and further away from GUI interfaces.
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  5. Security Nut NightShade03's Avatar
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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by loxleynew View Post
    So basically it helps teach you the commands for *NIX that Ubuntu wouldn't because Ubuntu is more "user friendly"? On a side note this may sound dumb but why memorize hundreds of commands when you can just look them up later? I know some of them would come in handy and are necessary to remember but just like dos many of those commands are pointless remembering besides when you need them?

    I guess ^^ is my lack of understanding but just curious before I dive into the world of *NIX and further away from GUI interfaces.
    Ubuntu has a nice pretty GUI which protects you from alot of the underlying "what's going on". With Gentoo you have to build the operating system up to the way you want it (libraries, drivers, programs, etc). They are very different extremes. If you really just want more hands on while using Ubuntu though you could always uninstall the desktop manager and work from the command line...forcing you to gain an understanding.


    As for your question about commands. It isn't necessary to memorize them per se, however knowing many different commands makes you more effective and you can fly around the system and get things done faster because you aren't spending time looking things up. If you ever move on to take an exam like the LPIC they quiz on the commands and their options. The Red Hat exams are all hands on, so you better know what you are doing and the commands or you will never pass there. So you are right you don't need to know them....but it sure helps.

    Another way to look at it is....if you've used linux all your life and are moving onto window with all GUIs....I would have to spend time figuring out where the different options are to do different tasks. You are just doing the reverse but from the command line.
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  6. Sith Lord SephStorm's Avatar
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    #30
    IMO, I think it is a good idea to say use ubuntu, and do the gui install. Use it mostly like a regular PC, but say if you need to move a file, go to the command line. start off there, doing basic tasks. That is how I learned what I do know of linux, not just typing in a bunch of commands and not really "seeing" an effect. After you played around with it for a while, then go commando.

    And I am not familiar with Gentoo, but I would suggest going with a distro a little more well known, Ubuntu or Fedora. Fedora is based off of Red Hat which is tested in L+/LPI exams, from my understanding.
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  7. Security Nut NightShade03's Avatar
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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by SephStorm View Post
    Fedora is based off of Red Hat which is tested in L+/LPI exams, from my understanding.
    The LPI exams are distro neutral. They test on both Redhat/Fedora and Ubuntu/Debian commands (yum vs apt).
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    #32
    If you want to learn, pick whatever distro you want (they're far more similar than they aredifferent; it really doesn't matter when you're starting out), but don't do a GUI install. Being stuck at the command-line is whole different world. It'll force you to learn, but you'll love it once you get it down.

    If you just want a functional desktop OS, Ubuntu is the way to go. Fedora's alright too.
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  9. Senior Member phantasm's Avatar
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    #33
    Quote Originally Posted by loxleynew View Post
    So basically it helps teach you the commands for *NIX that Ubuntu wouldn't because Ubuntu is more "user friendly"? On a side note this may sound dumb but why memorize hundreds of commands when you can just look them up later? I know some of them would come in handy and are necessary to remember but just like dos many of those commands are pointless remembering besides when you need them?

    I guess ^^ is my lack of understanding but just curious before I dive into the world of *NIX and further away from GUI interfaces.
    The commands you learn are not useless and you will use most daily when using Linux. Providing of course that you don't spend all your time in Linux in the GUI. If you plan to use the GUI only then stick with Windows.

    Other things like formatting and creating file systems will be taught to you as well as system file configuration and where the files are stored. You learn a lot during a Gentoo install, but no one I've recommended it to have done it. Instead they call me all the time when they're looking for a configuration file. Of which I don't answer them anymore.

    A little pain now or a lot of pain later. Gentoo is versatile as can be and will allow you to tweak the system in ways that no other distro lets you. Think USE flags. But again, you don't know what those are unless you've installed and used Gentoo.
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  10. Go ping yourself... phoeneous's Avatar
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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by NightShade03 View Post
    Ubuntu hands down.
    I meant Unix, not Linux.
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  11. Security Nut NightShade03's Avatar
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    #35
    Quote Originally Posted by phoeneous View Post
    I meant Unix, not Linux.
    Free BSD or OpenSolaris
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    #36
    OpenBSD
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  13. Sith Lord SephStorm's Avatar
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    #37
    Quote Originally Posted by phantasm View Post
    The commands you learn are not useless and you will use most daily when using Linux. Providing of course that you don't spend all your time in Linux in the GUI. If you plan to use the GUI only then stick with Windows.

    Other things like formatting and creating file systems will be taught to you as well as system file configuration and where the files are stored. You learn a lot during a Gentoo install, but no one I've recommended it to have done it. Instead they call me all the time when they're looking for a configuration file. Of which I don't answer them anymore.

    A little pain now or a lot of pain later. Gentoo is versatile as can be and will allow you to tweak the system in ways that no other distro lets you. Think USE flags. But again, you don't know what those are unless you've installed and used Gentoo.
    Interesting, but I think that is percisly why a new linux user shouldn't start out with something like a gentoo install, the amount of options could be overwhelming. I of course, say this without reviewing the documentation. I'll probably download it tonight and work through it, but I have my reservations, and doubts.

    Also, that last remark worries me, "Think USE flags. But again, you don't know what those are unless you've installed and used Gentoo."

    If a person is trying to learn Linux in general, they don't need to be distracted with distro specific commands and whatnot. Especially during the install process. Next thing you know hes trying to use a gentoo command on a centos install. Unlikely there will be any negative side effects, but now he was to run around troubleshooting when his six our install doesn't work.
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  14. Senior Member phantasm's Avatar
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    #38
    Quote Originally Posted by SephStorm View Post
    Interesting, but I think that is percisly why a new linux user shouldn't start out with something like a gentoo install, the amount of options could be overwhelming. I of course, say this without reviewing the documentation. I'll probably download it tonight and work through it, but I have my reservations, and doubts.

    Also, that last remark worries me, "Think USE flags. But again, you don't know what those are unless you've installed and used Gentoo."

    If a person is trying to learn Linux in general, they don't need to be distracted with distro specific commands and whatnot. Especially during the install process. Next thing you know hes trying to use a gentoo command on a centos install. Unlikely there will be any negative side effects, but now he was to run around troubleshooting when his six our install doesn't work.
    USE flags in Gentoo are specified in the make.conf file which is checked for architecture information and specific system information each time a package is emerged. The USE flags are also explained in the handbook and they also give you a base line to use. Also, the profile you select during the install has a baseline set of USE flags already selected.

    The USE flags allow for a more granular control over the OS. For example, if you don't want IPv6 support then you would do 2 things. The first being to not include it in the kernel and the second would be to specify -ipv6 as a USE flag. Then whenever a program is emerged that has IPv6 the OS will not compile that support into the software package. The USE flags are amazingly powerful and very beneficial after you've gotten used to them.
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    #39
    Again, wouldn't you say that is unnecessary for someone starting out with linux?
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    #40
    Quote Originally Posted by SephStorm View Post
    Again, wouldn't you say that is unnecessary for someone starting out with linux?
    Maybe for someone who just wants basic knowledge. For someone who wants deep, admin level knowledge and beyond it might be worthwhile. I for one, am going to do this at some point.
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  17. Went to the dark side.... Moderator networker050184's Avatar
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    #41
    Quote Originally Posted by SephStorm View Post
    Again, wouldn't you say that is unnecessary for someone starting out with linux?
    I'd have to agree. When I'm learning something I start with a high level overview and then dig into the details as I get a solid conceptual understanding.

    That would be equivalent to learning all the intricacies of OSPF with out a solid understanding of routing in general first IMO.
    An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made.
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    #42
    Quote Originally Posted by networker050184 View Post
    I'd have to agree. When I'm learning something I start with a high level overview and then dig into the details as I get a solid conceptual understanding.

    That would be equivalent to learning all the intricacies of OSPF with out a solid understanding of routing in general first IMO.

    It probably isn't something you should do day one but after you have learned the very basics why not? Many people read CCNP level books while studying for the CCNA. This is kind of the same thing IMO.
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    #43
    Quote Originally Posted by networker050184 View Post
    I'd have to agree. When I'm learning something I start with a high level overview and then dig into the details as I get a solid conceptual understanding.

    That would be equivalent to learning all the intricacies of OSPF with out a solid understanding of routing in general first IMO.
    *nods*

    And thats all i'm saying. I personally feel I need to re-learn linux, just the basics, then go on from there.
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  20. Senior Member phantasm's Avatar
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    #44
    Quote Originally Posted by SephStorm View Post
    *nods*

    And thats all i'm saying. I personally feel I need to re-learn linux, just the basics, then go on from there.
    That's fine. I just made my recommendation, but like I said, it's not for everyone. Whatever distro you choose, enjoy it! Linux is a great road to travel down.
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  21. Went to the dark side.... Moderator networker050184's Avatar
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    #45
    Quote Originally Posted by knwminus View Post
    It probably isn't something you should do day one but after you have learned the very basics why not?.

    That is what I'm saying. I didn't say to never learn the details, just they aren't needed from day one to get a good understanding.
    An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made.
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  22. Senior Member loxleynew's Avatar
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    #46
    Hmm you lost me with all that USE flag stuff. I think i'm going to install a gui version of ubuntu and work my way down like you said using more and more command options to do stuff. Then after a few days maybe move onto fedora or do that gentoo install once I "get the over-all picture" of the file structure and stuff in a more "noob" friendly setting haha.
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    #47
    fedora 6 or 7. The goold old days when everything only worked 50% of the time. You'll either bash your head in or get very good whichever comes first.
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    #48
    Quote Originally Posted by loxleynew View Post
    Mainly support developers. Side note I hate programming beside the occasional VB or batch scripting which hardly counts lol.
    may be worth it to compile some items from source vs apt-get/rpm (yum)/etc binary install packages. that may be down the line however it will give you some insight into getting things compiled/linked that dev folks **may** ask your help on in that type of env.

    a good example of this is openldap -- many distros ship ver 2.3 which is years out of date...

    no hurry on that type of work though...
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    #49
    Quote Originally Posted by networker050184 View Post
    I'd have to agree. When I'm learning something I start with a high level overview and then dig into the details as I get a solid conceptual understanding.

    That would be equivalent to learning all the intricacies of OSPF with out a solid understanding of routing in general first IMO.
    Learning the intricacies of OSPF IS learning general routing.

    Its better to start learning at the detail level if you want to become a professional on that technology. Its what separates you from a user. It always surprises me when people lean towards the easy route, your not doing yourself any favors. When it comes time to start managing a Red Hat Server (the most common linux flavor in business) what you learn doing a GUI install of Ubuntu is not helpful.

    Learn how to install a program from a tarball. You MUST learn vi, as much of a pain as that thing is there is no way of getting around it. Learn cron scripting. Learn how to manage Apache and sendmail. Learn how to manage mySQL. Learn how to integrate linux into Windows domains. Learn how to manage Amanda backups.
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  26. Went to the dark side.... Moderator networker050184's Avatar
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    #50
    Quote Originally Posted by it_consultant View Post
    Learning the intricacies of OSPF IS learning general routing.
    No thats learning one single routing protocol.
    An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made.
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