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  1. Join Date
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    #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Bl8ckr0uter View Post
    Engineering is one thing. But if his degree was in "Network Engineering" (IT) you don't think the CCIE should count for anything? You don't think most CCIEs have a protocol and RFC level knowledge of networking (as told by Cisco)? Don't you think that should translate to something?
    When Turgon and I were in college we had to walk 5 miles each way to and from school everyday, in the snow. It was uphill both ways....

    Just kidding there, but the point being, I tend to chuckle when we see posts on here about people looking for the quickest route to get through undergraduate studies, with that quickest route usually involving some amount of credit for "life experience" or a prior certification. I've seen several of these threads where people will say something to the effect of that because they work full-time, that they don't have time to attend school in a traditional sense and should therefore get credit for their work and certifications that are earned.

    Like many of the people on here, I worked full time+ and attended school, both undergraduate and graduate full time+. I also completed undergrad in less than 4 years, from a good school. That was what was required at the time because there wasn't all of the credits available for certifications and life experience. I don't want to speak for Turgon, but I suspect his experience and opinion are similar to mine; what you do to earn a certification or what you do in your job a very different than what you do to earn a proper education.

    At the moment, the Education... at this point should I bother? thread is driving me crazy. I think the person is receiving really bad advice that isn't accounting for all of the factors that affect someone's career.

    MS
    Last edited by eMeS; 01-29-2011 at 10:52 PM.

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    #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Bl8ckr0uter View Post
    I suppose. I've worked with many CS students and grads who didn't understand ip addressing or very basic networking concepts and such. I will agree that networkers need to know all layers of the OSI very well but at the same time with differing job roles, you may get an engineer who only works on layer 1-3. I know a network engineer who works for a very large managed services provider who didn't know much about the higher layers (a little less than CCNA level).
    Just to add to what Turgon is saying, this is one of my favorite books about networking:

    Amazon.com: The Early History of Data Networks (Perspectives) (9780818667824): Gerard J. Holzmann, Björn Pehrson: Books

    You won't learn that stuff in any Cisco-related study....

    MS


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    #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Turgon View Post
    It would appear so. I have always said that certification and education are different and both are important. We have one lad who cleared his CCIE at 19 whilst working for his brother's IT company. He is now studying for a Degree in Engineering in a Scottish University and I doubt he's been given any credit for his certification. Which for me is the way it should be. I work with a guy with Masters in Mathematics who loves boxes and would happily spend 30 hours a week on them. No Cisco qualifications but his education and aptitude means he brings a lot to the table in terms of logical understanding of protocol mechanics and standards.
    Completely agree...rep given.

    MS

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    #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Turgon View Post
    CS students and grads who dont understand ip addressing or very basic networking concepts are either not being taught the stuff at college, or not paying attention in class, or simply not very bright.

    The guy you mention who knows little about the higher layers isnt about to lose his job and that goes for a lot of other people. But the bright futures technically belong to people strong in layers 1 - 7. The intelligence going into devices is impressive. Latency is just one concern, stickiness is another, but there is so much more. In high volume trading environments you need deep packet inspection skills and extremely strong layer 4 - 7 capabilities. This was something emphasised by our instructor, the need to get hot on post layer 4 knowledge and network capabilities, proxies, redirectors, accellerators, reverse proxies, F5 loadbalancers etc etc etc. It came as no surprise to me as I was aware of this years ago in the environment I supported. We developed trading software for Bank of New York to name but a few. But its becoming mainstream now. The problem is, a lot of Cisco qualified people can't get up and draw a TCP state diagram much less make sense of a firewall log. Our network guru ran snoop on UNIX boxes back in 2000 and had papers on tcp intercept by his desk. Pushing packets just isn't a big money earner anymore. As one agent told me in 2003, lots of people can do BGP, what about content switching and specializations. Since that time I have seen security and voice oversubscribed by people who do it badly. They ain't the holy grail today either. 1 - 7 is.
    I mean I have read what you are said before about learning networking vs learning cisco networking. I think though that today's cert crazy world, learning theory isn't advantageous as getting the cert and learning vendor specifics in the long run. I know that in the long run learning the theory will help but it is easy to be short sighted.
    Last edited by Bl8ckr0uter; 01-29-2011 at 10:55 PM.

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    #80
    Quote Originally Posted by eMeS View Post
    When Turgon and I were in college we had to walk 5 miles each way to and from school everyday, in the snow. It was uphill both ways....

    Just kidding there, but the point being, I tend to chuckle when we see posts on here about people looking for the quickest route to get through undergraduate studies, with that quickest route usually involving some amount of credit for "life experience" or a prior certification. I've seen several of these threads where people will say something to the effect of that because they work full-time, that they don't have time to attend school in a traditional sense and should therefore get credit for their work and certifications that are earned.
    Mind you I am doing my 2 year degree. Someone here posted that it isn't even really a degree so why should I care?

    All jokes aside I am not looking for a get rich quick scheme to get through school. I plan to get at least a Masters and JD and I know I will be in school for quite some time after this degree. I also don't expect certs to pave the way for my non IT oriented studies. Hell, I don't even expect to retire in the IT field so I need to get a holistic education that will cross over into many other aspects of life. I basically have two reasons that education is important to me. The first are very personal and would require a lot of explanation but in short I want to surpass all expectations people have had of me. The second is that I feel I must surpass my father who has his MS in Chemistry and will probably have is PHd in Education and in Chemisty eventually.

    Quote Originally Posted by eMeS View Post
    Like many of the people on here, I worked full time+ and attended school, both undergraduate and graduate full time+. I also completed undergrad in less than 4 years, from a good school. That was what was required at the time because there wasn't all of the credits available for certifications and life experience. I don't want to speak for Turgon, but I suspect his experience and opinion are similar to mine; what you do to earn a certification or what you do in your job a very different than what you do to earn a proper education.
    MS
    That's very commendable and respectable.

  7. Senior Member Turgon's Avatar
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    #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Bl8ckr0uter View Post
    I mean I have read what you are said before about learning networking vs learning cisco networking. I think though that today's cert crazy world, learning theory isn't advantageous as getting the cert and learning vendor specifics in the long run. I know that in the long run learning the theory will help but it is easy to be short sighted.
    Sometimes even dual CCIE's are regarded as nothing more than glorified NOC Engineers. Vendor certification has it's place but is actually no substitute for experience and education. The demands on the top networking professionals are very high these days as is the competition for those jobs, and to be honest you are just a likely to find someone with years of classical education and unix background in those architect roles as you are CCIE's. For me certification has got too hung up on features at the expense of fundamentals which is why people have problems with reg-ex for bgp, hardware queues in qos, multicasting, loadbalancing and a myriad other things. While things have moved on it all starts with the basics. Radia Perlman didn't have a CCIE when she wrote her thesis and the features being developed on the machines we use are coming out of computer science. We don't have to be rocket scientists but deep and wide reading either through self study or through education is very beneficial. Even basic mathematics isn't strongly tested in the vendor tracks which I find baffling because if you blow your policing parameters on a service provider network 5000 telephones might suddenly stop working properly and the SLA breech could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    Add to which a vendor of any flavour could be thrown into the mix at anytime. At that point the world cannot wait two years for you to munch your way through a certification track to expert level. You will have to engage with that technology and make different implementations of protocols and mechanisms play nicely together. Reliance on a different vendor education will not plug the gap there. Understanding the technology deeply will. To be honest the old reading list for the CCIE written did at least encourage some of the sort of background Im talking about. We were encouraged to read some pretty obscure books by today's standards but to this day Im glad I did so even if I didnt understand a lot of what I read at the time. A few years field experience put it into context! The problem today is the written is seen as a ticket to schedule a lab exam slot at San Jose as opposed to a critical learning and training experience. So there ain't a whole lot of reading going on.


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    #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Bl8ckr0uter View Post
    Mind you I am doing my 2 year degree. Someone here posted that it isn't even really a degree so why should I care?
    That's funny, but I don't really agree with it. In fact, if I were doing it all over again, I would probably grab a two year degree first, simply because it seemed like it took so long to accomplish the four year degree. I don't think a two year would have ever helped me, but I've learned over the years that it's very good to have interim goals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bl8ckr0uter View Post
    All jokes aside I am not looking for a get rich quick scheme to get through school. I plan to get at least a Masters and JD and I know I will be in school for quite some time after this degree. I also don't expect certs to pave the way for my non IT oriented studies. Hell, I don't even expect to retire in the IT field so I need to get a holistic education that will cross over into many other aspects of life. I basically have two reasons that education is important to me. The first are very personal and would require a lot of explanation but in short I want to surpass all expectations people have had of me.
    Yeah, from what I've read you have a good head on your shoulders, and appear to be looking for answers more than short cuts.

    Also consider that people like me, and there's a few of us here, who went a more traditional educational route, are at this point separated by a severe generational gap. We'll probably never adjust to the myriad ways in which college credit can be earned these days.

    As I've said before, any educational experience will ultimately be only what you make of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bl8ckr0uter View Post
    That's very commendable and respectable.
    Thanks, but I wasn't really looking for praise. What I'm really pointing out is that what I did is not really that unique; there are many out there who took exactly the same approach.

    I always remember back in undergrad meeting people in class that were my age, worked full time+, and had kids. Now that would have taken some discipline.

    MS
    Last edited by eMeS; 01-30-2011 at 02:26 AM.

  9. Senior Member Turgon's Avatar
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    #83
    The youngest thing seems to be a growth industry. I received this out of the blue in my private message inbox, a few of you also probably..

    All my kids are planning to write for CCNA in Apr11. My kids are not born talented but work hard to be known all over the world to tell our story.
    I am trying to get them all possible support from the entire world community and hence this msg to you as a person with incredible achievement.
    The videos are recorded in single shot. Link for trailer video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1UN0..._order&list=UL

    It might be time to pack it all in and write Novels for a living.

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    #84
    I ate dirt when I was 11 and hid worms in my mums shoes ...

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    #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Turgon View Post
    The problem today is the written is seen as a ticket to schedule a lab exam slot at San Jose as opposed to a critical learning and training experience. So there ain't a whole lot of reading going on.
    Thanks for this. Now, I don't feel bad to actually try and read all CCIE recommended books (20 of them). Even though, I've read Section 1.00 to 1.50 several times from CCNA to CCNP studies, I still like to read them just to cover everything on that CCIE blueprint. I'll never know what's gonna hit me during Written and Lab exam. Again, thanks! I was beginning to think that I am over studying.

  12. Junior Member
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    #86

    Default If you think my certs are useless at age 12, read this.

    Quote Originally Posted by vistalavista View Post
    So what? These certs are useless for you. Enjoy your childhood like any normal person.
    I know many thought it's useless to be a certified trainer at age 12. Come and join a free Microsoft Word 2007 training and it may change your mind.

    Please pass this information to people you think may benefit from this free class - Word 2007. Class meets every Sat. and Sun. in 2/2011, 4pm-5pm (meeting room will open @ 3:30pm for chat ) log in early www.***************.com - use meeting room ID 769-103-822 or follow this link https://www3.gotomeeting.com/join/769103822.)

    The class will be taught by Valerie Chen. She is Office Master 2003, & 2007, MCTS (Vista-client), MCT (Trainer since 6/2010), CTT+ (both classroom and virtual) and A+ (passed both at first try).

    I took A+ practical on 12/29/10 and failed badly then Valerie gave me some tips, and I took it the next day (while studying hard) and I passed on 12/30/10.

    Valerie will be teach the class and I will help. The class is free, because the certs maybe useless to us if our goal is to make big $, but it will not stop us from helping others.

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