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  1. Certification Invigilator Forum Admin JDMurray's Avatar
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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by volfkhat View Post
    My earlier post was simply:
    Tailor your resume for the job you are applying for.
    Yes, I wasn't referring to a resume or a CV. If you lie/omit on those docs you don't necessarily get a persistent penalty that follows you the remainder of your career. If you are discovered to have misrepresented yourself on a background information (SF-86), that will be noted in a database for follow you literally forever.
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    #27
    I wonder if the employers are ever truthful when they tell you about the work and hours you will be doing.
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    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by someperson49 View Post
    I wonder if the employers are ever truthful when they tell you about the work and hours you will be doing.


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  5. Senior Member koz24's Avatar
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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by UncleB View Post
    To those who say it is deceitful to remove the Masters degree from the resume - that is simply rubbish. Do you include every qualification? How about all your lower school qualifications? If you passed your motorbike driving test, do you include to too? Maybe the results of the last pub trivia quiz? The point is that you only declare what is truthful, but there is no requirement or obligation to declare qualifications and I cannot imagine anyone holding it against you if you chose to be humble and leave some of it off your resume.
    There is a big difference between a Masters degree and the counter examples you listed like a driving test, bar quiz, etc. Because listing a bunch of irrelevant details on a resume is only something beginners do. A Masters degree is actually relevant to the candidate and position at hand.

    By omitting important and relevant information you are in fact being deceitful, you are only justifying it because it's something you have earned that you are leaving off, not adding on what you don't have.

    Not to mention, the OP did his Masters degree full-time. That means he has nothing else to fill those 2 years on his resume with. You haven't fully thought out your position because what would you do if they ask what you were doing in those 2 years and you now have a gap? You are now forced to say you were deceitful and found it strategic to leave your Masters degree off the resume. Personally I would find it silly but like JDMurray said it would make you appear untrustworthy.
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  6. Senior Member UncleB's Avatar
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    #30
    Quote Originally Posted by koz24 View Post
    By omitting important and relevant information you are in fact being deceitful
    You are wrong. Omitting something positive is not lying (the act of deceit you refer to). Claiming something you do not have is a lie, omitting it does not even come close to this.

    Quote Originally Posted by koz24 View Post
    Not to mention, the OP did his Masters degree full-time. That means he has nothing else to fill those 2 years on his resume with. You haven't fully thought out your position because what would you do if they ask what you were doing in those 2 years and you now have a gap?
    He could say he was studying (no need to specify the masters degree if he thinks it will hurt his chances) and he has the certs to back it up. He had no work prior to this so he does not need to justify the gap further than this, but if pushed he could say he has found it a challenge to find positions without experience - all perfectly viable and without one word of deceit.

    Is that enough thinking it through for you or am I being deceitful for thinking you may be unhelpful to the OP but didn’t write it? Oops, maybe I shouldn’t have written that down

    Do you see the difference between omission and lying now?
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  7. Senior Member koz24's Avatar
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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by UncleB View Post
    You are wrong. Omitting something positive is not lying (the act of deceit you refer to). Claiming something you do not have is a lie, omitting it does not even come close to this.



    He could say he was studying (no need to specify the masters degree if he thinks it will hurt his chances) and he has the certs to back it up. He had no work prior to this so he does not need to justify the gap further than this, but if pushed he could say he has found it a challenge to find positions without experience - all perfectly viable and without one word of deceit.

    Is that enough thinking it through for you or am I being deceitful for thinking you may be unhelpful to the OP but didn’t write it? Oops, maybe I shouldn’t have written that down

    Do you see the difference between omission and lying now?
    Do I really need to play the definition card? I'll save myself the time and let you look up the definition of 'deceitful' for yourself. Now you're just moving the goal posts by switching to lying and lies.

    He could say whatever BS story you can dream of, but you are recommending he purposefully omit 2 years of full-time study and are suggesting he lie that he was doing certs instead. Do you need to move the goalposts again?

    Personally I think you are hurting the OP by suggesting that he be deceitful, but to each his own.

    P.S. Try not to start an argument with "you are wrong"-- and then go on to prove me right, it makes you look silly.
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  8. ABL - Always Be Labbin' Iristheangel's Avatar
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    #32
    I am somewhat amused that everyone immediately jumps to the fact that he's got a master's degree on his resume as the reason he can't get a job. Without asking to see his resume, asking where he lives, asking how far he's gotten in the interview process, what his definition of a "well paying job" or making a recommendation about what types of programs or jobs he could apply for fresh out of grad school.

    Naw. Let's not take that into account and just tell him to omit a positive from his resume and give him a 2 year gap in his resume where he's studying for certifications instead of going to school. I'm sure that will fix it.
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  9. ABL - Always Be Labbin' Iristheangel's Avatar
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    #33
    Oh and JD is right. Depending on the job - whether it's with the government or requires some kind of clearance - lying about your MS degree could be discovered. Honesty is the best policy
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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Iristheangel View Post
    I am somewhat amused that everyone immediately jumps to the fact that he's got a master's degree on his resume as the reason he can't get a job. Without asking to see his resume, asking where he lives, asking how far he's gotten in the interview process, what his definition of a "well paying job" or making a recommendation about what types of programs or jobs he could apply for fresh out of grad school.

    Naw. Let's not take that into account and just tell him to omit a positive from his resume and give him a 2 year gap in his resume where he's studying for certifications instead of going to school. I'm sure that will fix it.
    OP clearly states this:

    I currently have my MS in Cyber Security Technology and hold several highly respectable certifications. The only problem is that I don't have any hands on IT experience. I've been living with my parents working on my degree and obtaining certs.

    Never really had a real job.

    So the issue is that I'm having a hard time getting a job that pays decent with no experience. I've been denied for being overqualified for help desk jobs. What do you all recommend in a situation like this?

    They said very clearly they're being disqualified for being over qualified, (We do know this as fact but don't know exactly what on their resume is causing this). Now with that said, I suggested taking the certifications off not the degrees. IMO Certifications have a certain element of mastery or expertise associated with them.

    The bottom line IMO is the OP didn't keep his/her experience in alignment with his/her credentials. This is the biggest no-no in IT, again in my opinion and research, some anecdotal. This is where you have most of these disconnects from young IT professionals. It's why I don't suggest getting more than one certification before applying for jobs. (Again just my strategy but it works).

    I think the strategy at this point is to ratchet back a few items off the resume and give it a go on some help desk jobs. Heck the OP might have more education and certifications than the hiring manager and leads.... And we all know that insecurity reigns supreme in the work place.

    The OP only posted once so I won't spend anymore effort on this....

    Good luck to the OP.


    Last edited by DatabaseHead; 10-02-2017 at 12:17 AM.
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  11. ABL - Always Be Labbin' Iristheangel's Avatar
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    #35
    ...or he could simply just not go for help desk jobs since he's got an MS in Cybersecurity and security is one of those fields that have a negative unemployment rate in certain areas. See my original replies and the links I provided. There are plenty of places that would probably hire him if he's willing to relocate. Also, there isn't an implied level of experience with a MS degree - it's not a lab heavy cert such as a CCIE or VCAP. He also stated he had well respected certifications - not expert or advanced ones. That would be an assumption to think he should racket back either unless he clarifies. I, for one, do not think the OP should take a help desk job unless forced to given what his MS degree is in and the demand for that specific field. If the OP would like to clarify or states that he has no interest in cybersecurity after getting that degree, that would be fair but I am making a general assumption that his interest is in security.

    Most professional fields that require advanced degrees (doctors, lawyers, etc), the professional gets the degrees and schooling out of the way prior to having any sort of professional experience in said field. In IT, we're unique because we don't need schooling in order to get into the field in most cases but, like other professionals, we don't often add weight or implied experience by virtue of someone having a degree.

    Ironically, I believe some of the folks on this thread have posted in other threads in the past about how a degree only helps out early on in your career but it gets less useful the more years that go by and experience you get. I definitely agree with that but now we're telling n00bs to remove degrees and pop it back on the resume years from now when it really won't help much anyways?
    Last edited by Iristheangel; 10-02-2017 at 12:32 AM.
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    #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Iristheangel View Post
    Ironically, I believe some of the folks on this thread have posted in other threads in the past about how a degree only helps out early on in your career but it gets less useful the more years that go by and experience you get. I definitely agree with that but now we're telling n00bs to remove degrees and pop it back on the resume years from now when it really won't help much anyways?
    And no offense to them, I think they are speaking from a position which may not apply to newer candidates getting into IT.
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    #37
    I'm not saying that at all, keep the degrees no way I would remove them. Certs on the other hard are meant to be added and removed, it's like plug and play as needed.

    If you are applying for a business centric IT role, it's probably in your best interest to omit the MCSE..... While people on this forum like to say it will be helpful, I know it's not in those situations...... I've lived it.

    OP did state they are applying for help desk jobs though, I only answer the questions that are asked. They are interested in help desk, which was clearly stated, and I offered why they were getting back overqualified HR messages via email or phone......
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    #38
    I just can't fathom a scenario where I would spend the time and money on a Master's degree and then withhold it from my resume. I also would not start with a help desk role. Did you complete any internships?
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  15. ABL - Always Be Labbin' Iristheangel's Avatar
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    #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Repo Man View Post
    And no offense to them, I think they are speaking from a position which may not apply to newer candidates getting into IT.
    I would say that in most cases, degrees only help in the beginning of your career. The more experience (even the experience part is debatable to be fair) and focused certs you get, the less people care about your degree. This is why most folks end up moving their degrees to the end of their resume after enough time. In this case, the OP is applying for helpdesk roles - First question I would ask is why? Second question is why he thinks he's being turned down for being overqualified. Is it an assumption or has be been blatently told this? Usually if I send a resume into the ether and I'm overqualified, I would assume in most cases they simply look at his resume and never call him. He might each and every company he sends his resume to but if he's submitting his resume to 100's of places, that seems like a daunting task.

    @Repo - and I agree with you, I wouldn't spend $15-30K on a MS degree and then just forget about it for a couple years.
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    #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Repo Man View Post
    I just can't fathom a scenario where I would spend the time and money on a Master's degree and then withhold it from my resume. I also would not start with a help desk role. Did you complete any internships?
    How bout the scenario when you can't get a job because of it? I agree with Master's degree he should be applying for more specialized roles though. Security Analyst, SOC, NOC... I would be surprised if someone thought he would be overqualified for those types of positions.

    I'm also curious if he has blatantly been told over and over he is overqualified.
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    #41
    To add my .02, I can say that removing my MBA of my resume/CV definitely got me more interviews in my early years of IT work. I needed the entry level jobs to break into IT, certs alone weren't enough, but I wasn't getting much interviews. Then it occurred to me, my MBA was probably discouraging employers, after all it made me appear overqualified, like I would take the job and jump ship when something better came along. I wasn't planning to do that of course, my intent was to gradually build experience. But potential employers didn't know that or could be sure that's what I would do. After I removed it, listed only my BSIT and certs, and revised my resume to give my satellite and wireless telecom experience a more "IT spin", I was able to break into IT.

    And when my employers found out I had it, none of them said anything nor did I ever lose an offer or job because of it.
    I even told a manager when I was looking into an internal position that preferred a Masters after being with the company over a year, I in fact have an MBA (thus a Masters) but left it off my resume. He even admitted had he seen it on my application, he probably would have passed me over as he had with other candidates.

    At my career stage now, including it on my resume has become very helpful, as I've progressed from Sys Admin in the beginning, to IT manager now, so having an MBA enhances my resume.
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    #42
    Quote Originally Posted by LordQarlyn View Post
    To add my .02, I can say that removing my MBA of my resume/CV definitely got me more interviews in my early years of IT work. I needed the entry level jobs to break into IT, certs alone weren't enough, but I wasn't getting much interviews. Then it occurred to me, my MBA was probably discouraging employers, after all it made me appear overqualified, like I would take the job and jump ship when something better came along. I wasn't planning to do that of course, my intent was to gradually build experience. But potential employers didn't know that or could be sure that's what I would do. After I removed it, listed only my BSIT and certs, and revised my resume to give my satellite and wireless telecom experience a more "IT spin", I was able to break into IT.

    And when my employers found out I had it, none of them said anything nor did I ever lose an offer or job because of it.
    I even told a manager when I was looking into an internal position that preferred a Masters after being with the company over a year, I in fact have an MBA (thus a Masters) but left it off my resume. He even admitted had he seen it on my application, he probably would have passed me over as he had with other candidates.

    At my career stage now, including it on my resume has become very helpful, as I've progressed from Sys Admin in the beginning, to IT manager now, so having an MBA enhances my resume.
    This is reality...... I've been the hiring manager who has over looked resumes for lower level IT positions because of the advanced degrees and certifications.

    I always thought this was common knowledge........
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    #43
    Quote Originally Posted by DatabaseHead View Post
    ...Now with that said, I suggested taking the certifications off not the degrees. IMO Certifications have a certain element of mastery or expertise associated with them...

    I think the strategy at this point is to ratchet back a few items off the resume and give it a go on some help desk jobs.
    WRONG!!
    Because according to JDmurray & koz24,
    if the OP leaves off these relevant certifications, then he is being deceitful.

    .</sarcasm>
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    #44
    Quote Originally Posted by LordQarlyn View Post

    And when my employers found out I had it, none of them said anything nor did I ever lose an offer or job because of it.
    I even told a manager when I was looking into an internal position that preferred a Masters after being with the company over a year, I in fact have an MBA (thus a Masters) but left it off my resume. He even admitted had he seen it on my application, he probably would have passed me over as he had with other candidates.

    Finally, we get to the Truth of the Matter:

    Some employers may think the omission deceitful.
    And some employers may not (as LordQ's annecdote proves).

    But you would be fool to definitively speak for "all" employers...
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    #45
    Assuming your in the US, there are government jobs that they can't fill because of a lack of personnel. I don't know what you consider "good" pay but depending on if your willing to relocate there are a lot of IT related jobs in the FBI that someone with your credentials could look into. The pay isn't amazing right out of the gate but there are a multitude of benefits.

    It's something to look at if your interested.
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    #46
    Quote Originally Posted by NetworkNewb View Post
    Yea, I probably wouldn't want to hire someone with those credentials for a help desk job either. Safe to assume you jump as soon as another job came along.

    Didn't do an internship in all that time you were in college?

    I guess you could dumb your resume down and remove some high level certs to get a lower level position though...
    No I didn't do an internship while I was in school which I regret.
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    #47
    Quote Originally Posted by volfkhat View Post
    These guys nailed it.

    Personally, i would keep the certifications on your resume, but REMOVE the Masters Degree;
    THAT's the biggest reason you cant land an entry job.

    I think a resume with a BAchelors, a couple of certs, and No experience is okay for an Entry position.
    I also think a 2nd resume with an Associates, a couple of certs, and No experience is also okay for an Entry position.

    Keep applying for gigs, but use the 'correct' resume.
    In your circumstance, you want to HIDE your qualifications :]

    (After a few years of working, you can put your Masters Degree back on it)

    I was thinking about removing my degree from my resume to see if anyone would actually take me serious. I've received multiple job denials due to overqualification so this looks like the issue.
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    #48
    It's the catch22 of education. I was looking for a Jr analyst a year ago, got a ton of resumes by people who were already beyond that level. You'd think that would be great, except you know they'd be on the lookup for a Sr level position the second they take the job, so it's a waste of time. Especially if you're going for helpdesk type jobs with a masters in security. They know you're on the lookout ASAP for a security role, otherwise why did you get the MS in the first place?
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    #49
    I take my Master's and MBA off my resume with experience depending on the contract or opportunity. That is ALOT different from remitting those degrees on the SF-89 or other government reporting. Basically, if its not on the resume I don't have to declare it on an application with no penalty later by HR unless applying for a higher level position in the same company later in my career.

    Simply put. My MBA is generally worthless if I am applying as a security architect but my experience and CS degrees would be spot on. Oh and those cert things. Clients like them but used improperly and will get you into just as much trouble. If you declare yourself to be a mid level security analyst with the CISSP or network engineer with a CCNP with no experience of course people are going to look at you suspiciously. Most high level certificates require documented experience in order to sit for the exam.

    Sorry for offending many of you but many know my policy on such.

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    #50
    Quote Originally Posted by beads View Post
    I take my Master's and MBA off my resume with experience depending on the contract or opportunity. That is ALOT different from remitting those degrees on the SF-89 or other government reporting. Basically, if its not on the resume I don't have to declare it on an application with no penalty later by HR unless applying for a higher level position in the same company later in my career.

    Simply put. My MBA is generally worthless if I am applying as a security architect but my experience and CS degrees would be spot on. Oh and those cert things. Clients like them but used improperly and will get you into just as much trouble. If you declare yourself to be a mid level security analyst with the CISSP or network engineer with a CCNP with no experience of course people are going to look at you suspiciously. Most high level certificates require documented experience in order to sit for the exam.

    Sorry for offending many of you but many know my policy on such.

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