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  1. Junior Member
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    #51
    Yes the industry has grown up. Things are more complex now. Demands are higher. Expectations of specialists are higher. The smart money and the number of smart jobs has collapsed to the centre. It's a hothouse atmosphere and a great challenge.

    Companies are generally more savvy now about what they require from techs. It's much harder to blag it now and make $$$$$$. You have to know things in detail and you have to know it very well. Not only configure. Design. Match technologies to business goals. Integrate. That takes time, effort, ability, the right experience and a thirst for new things. So you have to want it and you have to work for it. Not a place for flashy wideboys to make easy bucks anymore. Less room for them. Automate, co-locate, virtualise, downsize, offshore. Companies need engineers to get them there, and very good ones at that. Convergence anyone?

    Excellent engineers are still required.

    It's fun though and there are still good jobs out there.

    My working week is finally over. It's 10:30pm Friday night and Im just done reading the SRTT nuances of EIGRP. Go figure

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  3. Senior Member
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    #52
    One thing I will say about this industry.

    You will never have a day just like any other day that has gone before. It's alway moving with always different problems everyday. Some you know how to fix, some you have to work out, some that absolutely dumbfound all your efforts .... I could never do a 9-5 in a small company. I would be dead within a week!

    The pay is good compared to relevent grades in other departments and you get to be the hero a lot as your average user base is still coming to terms with the nuances of that screen in front of them. Nomatter how clever they are, they always turn to you when they are stuck. (10 years ago we were trying to get them to understand how a mouse worked and that you didn't actually have to hold it against the screen and that the print screen button didnt actually involve holding a sheet of blank paper against the screen to get their printout - I am not kidding! I've seen it with my own eyes!)

    In 20 years time it will be a completely different matter if my 7/5/4 year olds are anything to go by. (little s**t just beat me at Quake 3 duel and kicks my butt on Fifa 07)

    If you get a buzz from IT and you enjoy learning the ins and outs of it all then this is the profession for you. I have been actively working in IT nearly 15 years now and I still get hacked off and the hairs go up on the back of my neck when I can't get something working or the whole system comes to grinding halt half hour before I turn in for work and get told about the problem as I am walking up the corridore, coffee in hand, by the senior Service Desk manager, dashing out almost pleading with me to get it sorted asap as your the only one that can. (not true but it does feel good when they say it - when all it is is that the server has got it's knickers in a twist and just needs a reboot so you reboot and walk out and tell them it will be up in 2 minutes.... well you can imagine!)

    The more people that certify and understand the new technologies coming out, the better our industry becomes [don't think of it from a job competition point of view.. think of the long term], AND the more difficult it will be for the folks that haven't heard the .com fiasco is now over and the harder time the short cut certifiers are going to have trying to blag their way into our profession, giving the rest of us a bad name.

  4. Junior Member
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    #53
    I think 2 problems with the IT industry that I didn't see addressed are recruiters/head-hunters and over specialization.

    My two recent experiences with head-hunters were attempts to sell me for something I wasn't. I assume that would be a source of frustration for employers. I had a recruiter that had me re-write a web site in cold fusion so I could take credit for the live site. Then he wrote a resume that should have won a Pulitzer prize for modern fiction and tried to sell me as an expert in fuse-box methodologies. I had an "inside recruiter" teach me Java technologies, but in the middle of my study he was fired for hiring under qualified people. BTW; it was Ameri-quest.

    Most developers I know are so specialized that they have no idea what the world is like outside their flat screen. They may be good at and dream in C++/Java/IOS but their attitude hurts end-users while it give the IT world a bad name. It is the same attitude that has given the world; TCP/IP, HTTP, PAP, WEP, DSA, etc.

  5. Junior Member
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    #54
    i am a recruiter/head-hunter and i don't consider myself to be bringing down the IT world. I am honest with my candidates and with my clients. there is no reason for me to lie, or oversell a candidate. the client is going to find out one way or another. if they question the candidate on skill and they don't know---i'm busted and lose a client. If they hire that candidate and then they blow it because they don't know something ---i'm busted and lose a client. If this was a problem in the past, then these so called recruiters are just looking to make the quick buck and aren't really looking to the future and long-term working relationships.

  6. Self-Described Huguenot blargoe's Avatar
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    #55
    I have stayed in IT because I'm really good at it, and really bad at everything else.

    There are lots of jobs out there. The nature of the available jobs is what has changed. The difference today is that you don't get a fast track anymore, you have to drudge away doing grunt work and gradually work your way up. and more often when you're just starting out you have to open yourself up to temp and contract work until you get more years under your belt. But at least for today, there are lots of great jobs if you stick with it long enough to get the experience even if it is painful for a while.
    IT guy since 12/00

    Recent: 3/22/2017 - Passed Microsoft 70-412; 2/11/2017 - Completed VCP6-DCV (passed 2V0-621)
    Working on: MCSA 2012 upgrade from 2003 (to heck with 2008!!), more Linux, AWS Solution Architect (Associate)
    Thinking about: VCP6-CMA, MCSA 2016, Python, VCAP6-DCD (for completing VCIX)

  7. Questionably Benevolent Moderator Slowhand's Avatar
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    #56
    Quote Originally Posted by bobbyairtime
    i am a recruiter/head-hunter and i don't consider myself to be bringing down the IT world. I am honest with my candidates and with my clients. there is no reason for me to lie, or oversell a candidate. the client is going to find out one way or another. if they question the candidate on skill and they don't know---i'm busted and lose a client. If they hire that candidate and then they blow it because they don't know something ---i'm busted and lose a client. If this was a problem in the past, then these so called recruiters are just looking to make the quick buck and aren't really looking to the future and long-term working relationships.
    I think this might even be called "paper recruiters", just the same as people who misrepresent themselves with dumping certs have "paper certs". Just as there are countless people honestly studying, learning, and earning their certs, there are others still who cheat and lie to get to where they need to be. It brings the whole industry down, and I'd imagine that there are people like this all over, be it in certification, recruiting, and anything else. We can't whitewash things, gathering them into a sweeping generalization of "the one thing that's making life miserable is <insert scapegoat issue here>". What causes problems in any industry, in any part of life, is usually more complex than one single thing or another.

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  8. Senior Member
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    #57
    http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,14...s/article.html

    Tech Spending Stable Worldwide, Analysts Say

    A Gartner study finds that IT spending has so far been largely unaffected, despite the ongoing signs of weakness in the U.S. and global economies.

    On a global basis, the projected IT budget growth rate for 2008 is 3.3 percent, unchanged from a previous Gartner survey.
    Just came across this article. Since there have not been any posts in a while I would like to perhaps ease some fears of most recent times with the economy.

  9. Member
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    #58
    I have a question for those of you already working in the field.

    I am currently in the Army, and I am a 25B. (IT Tech). I have 3 years left in the Army, and am currently working towards my Bachelors at DeVry in CIS with a subtrack in ISS. While I am doing this, I have already earned my A+ Cert, and am currently working on my CCNA. After I finish that, I will most likely work on either my CCNP or my CCSP

    With 5 years experience in this field when I get out of the Army, and 10 prior to that in other various Communication fields via the Army as well, is it easier or harder for Military to get jobs?

    I know I can get contracting jobs for the Military working on various systems that we use over here as a DSE, but that is not the course I want to take as they still come to Iraq. When I get out, I want to get as far away from having to leave my wife again as I can. Although I know working in some security fields for IT require travel.

    I just wanted to get some inside info as to the challenge I am looking at.

  10. Senior Member Tyrant1919's Avatar
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    #59
    Being former military, with a security clearance, plenty of hands on experience, and a few certs, you'll be golden. 3 Years is a long time, you may stay in...

    I'm looking for a contract position to go to Iraq for a year or so actually.

  11. Went to the dark side.... Moderator networker050184's Avatar
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    #60
    Many civilian companies look very highly upon military. When I got out of the Army not to long ago I wanted to get away from any military contracting as well. I had no problem getting a job with a company with zero ties to the military. I did have a lot of offers from contracting companies as well, but like you didn't want to take another trip overseas away from the family. As Tyrant1919 stated with all the experience and other perks that come with the military like clearance and discipline you shouldn't have a problem finding work.
    An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made.

  12. Member
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    #61
    Actually, I've talked it over with my wife. That's why I am pushing myself so hard right now. I am working 12-16 hour days here in Iraq (I'm the BN Automations NCOIC and most of my soldiers have little experience so I am still training them). I have a little over 11 years in now, and I just can't do the deployments anymore. I've had 5 deployments, and when I was offered an instructor slot to teach our MOS, Fort Stewart blocked it and snagged me up real fast.

    I already haven't seen my wife in 2 and a half years due to schools, deployments and other things going on in her life as well. I just can't see myself puting in the last 8 years doing the same thing. It's time for a family and stability. Right now my job can't offer me that.

    I was just curious as to how military faired against other competition out there. Like I said, I should get my degree finished, and then I will be pushing hard for any and all certs I can grab.

    Thanks for the advice, it's appreciated.

    Tyrant1919 - What type of contracting job were you looking for? I work hand in hand with a lot of the contractors over here for the Datapath (CPN/JNN), BFT, MTS, and CPOF.

    A lot of the jobs will require training on the item in question, but things like the CPOF if you have experience with scripting and such, it isn't that hard to get a job with them. Try looking at Man Tech. They are the ones that do a lot of the CPOF and MTS contracting jobs.

    It's frustrating as a soldier over here working all these hours and then seeing a guy working on the CPOF work on average about 4-6 hours a day, and pay more in taxes a month then I get paid base salary. But Man Tech is a good company to look at if you are interested.

  13. Junior Member
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    #62
    All makes interesting reading.

    I'm currently a year into my IT career after finishing my 2nd degree - this one being in Computer Systems Engineering.

    Working at a Technological Enterprise level company as a Network Operations Engineer.

    All I can say is that the year has kicked my ass! All of my degrees have been heavily involved with Mathematics and bit level tranmissions, not to mention C++ and databases (which I suck at). As such, all of the networking terminology has been new and it has been hard keeping up and delivering to the company's needs.

    The good news is that I deal with all the latest kit, Citrix Netscalers, Cisco Guard platforms, 6500 series, digi CM's Toplayers etc etc.

    The bad thing is that I always feel exhausted after finishing a shift (11 hour shifts - 5 on, 3 off) and have not managed to dedicate time for my CCNA.

    I'm hoping that the experience is the key issue here. I have read a lot about the experience counting the most.

    If so, in addition with our financial trend following that outside the US, i'm hoping for some decent job availibilty

  14. Junior Member
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    #63

    Default Halflife78, good responce to the "flood of IT" wor

    A little about my self.

    I got hooked to the internet in 1995 and wanted to advance my career in that field.
    I blew a summer away learning as much about the internet and then went to a community collage taking programs in WindowsNT and Novell administration. Cisco was next and passed that but did not take my cisco ccna cirt. I did not know it at the time but I was suffereing from SleapApnea. It hammered my short term memory and in once case caused me to loose my job. Since that time worked in some good companies such as Microsoft, Fluke electronics. A small Company that need a admin to support there network and product specialist. September 11 hit and we almost
    I lost my job because of the severe downturn of sales as a result of 911. I Could not find work because the lingering .com crash in Seattle and the resulting 40% IT unemployment rate. Stuck it out in a small town being close to my Canadian wife then immigrated to Canada. Things were no better if not worse in Vancouver and could not for the life of me get a job interview. Since that time I have not worked in the IT industry. I did work installing infrasturture for Bell and IBM for a company but recently was layed off.

    What happened to me was the fact that I know I could have been in a better position if I had some cirtifications. Cirtifications do help but it is not enough today. I think somone with a well rounded base of Business skills and a IT support position would help substantially.

    We are in a downturn now in Vancouver. The building boom is over and now construction workers are looking for work. Companies are tightening there belts, houses are starting to fall in value leaving home owners in a upside down morgage situation. I think it will be very tough for me to obtain employment even if I am cirtified.

    Best advice to anyone is get double qualified in a different industry that is somewhat recession proof.

    Find the Proctor and Gamble of industries and try to get qualified to break into that market.

    I will get my cirtificate in 70-270-272 even if it does not mean I am employed in that market.


    For the 19 year old kid "do not recall your nick" we ALL were in your shoes. You may have to stick to something you do not like and be thankfull that if it is not what you want, it will be enough to pay your bills. Also, can I sugest that you put your income into some kind of investment for retirment. Yes the stock market sucks now but you are sooo young. In 5-10 years this downturn will be completly history. The stock market is cyclic. This is perhaps one of the worse markets to happen in along time. You have 45 years to invest your earning into a retirment program. Its best to start early because your account could compound.

  15. Member
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    #64
    I learned a lot from this thread

    Thank you all

    Brain-dumpers are not always successful.

    I know some of friends who got 100% in their CCNA and they don't know
    how to configure the simple router.

  16. Senior Member Turgon's Avatar
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    #65
    The market sucks right now and will get much, much worse this year. Hopefully everyone watched their money the last couple of years. Good luck in the job market.

  17. Senior Member itdaddy's Avatar
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    #66
    i have to agree with Turgeon and Vegataholic

    economy sucks; man there is no jobs for IT and if there are they want 20 certs and will pay you 45k to start ! holy crap!
    i mean nothing...that is why i am just going back to college mayeb i will teach or something
    man IT is an excited careerfield but seems to me IT is or can be really worked over.

    I cannot believe how much credit union or bank presidents get in pay. i mean
    i deal with these guys all the time and man what seems the policy makers make the $$$ while the brains of the company IT people get paid crap...i see guys who get paid 65 or less $$ a year and that is okay and then you have managers who get paid 100k in lending??
    what the hell. I work my arse off in IT to know the stuff I know and get paid crap!

    I am working on my BS degree and might get into teaching and then do some consulting on the side.. I have to get out of the racket; i am insulted getting paid what I do and how much I give to the company in knowlege; they want stuff for free when I learned it at a premium. Not everyon great IT guyis in a super job. I work for people I can run circles around. I dont know what I ma saying I am just pissed at the places I have interview with.
    This one big company had no IT guy to interview me. They had staffing interview me and
    ask if I could do this be a full tim programmmer and fulll time network engineer for a place that had 300 personnell? i said no! I dont know of anyone who can do both all the time wwell. The got someone but they pay hime 43k a year and no benifits..and on call 24/7
    I wasnt willing to do that and leave where I am at. Ihave great healthfor my son.
    so i stay..but some day I want to leave this s% hole..I have been at a job for 4 years and have done so much for this company..they just say thank you! yeah while managers who dont do squat get paid way over what I get paid. I think I want to be a manager
    and IT manager that way I can get paid manager pay. I really am considering a career change. IT guys network engineers well at least where i can see get paid crap compare to
    HR or IT Managers who dont know squat but are part of management.

    NOT!

    I think i will go into teaching and have summers off atleaset i can help someone and feel good about helping someone and get paid decent wage teaching without the headache of
    these people in mananagement getting paid big bucks; i mean in lending in banks you get paid some great money or if you are a fressh from college and get CPA certified man you start off making 65K route out the gate! s# in IT you have to 20 certs to make that much!
    Yes, there some of you that are very lucky but most are not! and my spelling and grammer suck since I am writing so fast...just pissed off how much people who have taken history classes make big bucks while us guys who have taken vector physics and calc II get paid crap!

    econonmy sucks and so does my field

    on the bright side I am finishing my BS degree and push to make more money on the side
    that is going good but wish I could find one job that pays me what i am worth! ;(

    so it is back to school for me maybe even a masters degree since econmony sucks!
    then maybe during baby boomer time I can hit it big! seems like it

  18. Senior Member
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    #67
    Quote Originally Posted by itdaddy View Post
    This one big company had no IT guy to interview me. They had staffing interview me and
    ask if I could do this be a full tim programmmer and fulll time network engineer for a place that had 300 personnell? i said no! I dont know of anyone who can do both all the time wwell. The got someone but they pay hime 43k a year and no benifits..and on call 24/7
    I wasnt willing to do that and leave where I am at.
    I know of a lot of people who work for companies that are like this, myself included. I work for a large real estate company so we are certainly feeling the crunch like many other businesses are. Now it stands at 40 offices, a lot of agents have left for other careers so I would guess around 1200 users roughly. We handle all aspects of our companies IT needs from with the exception of some of our phone issues are handled by our telco and we do so with just three of us in the IT department, myself and my counterpart are the two non management in our department with the third of us being the IT manager. Me and my counterpart have been reduced to 4 day work weeks to save money when we were already understaffed as it is. Now we stand here with not enough time in the day to accomplish the everyday items that crop up with workstations and whatnot, but we have recently been experiencing a whole slew of server failures as our hardware is aging and we have been struggling to find money in the budget to deal with these before the become a problem and then trying to squeeze in time to fix them.

    I think the most stressful part of it for me right now is because of the age of some of our equipment, we have been getting slaughtered lately with domain controllers performing epic failures as well as other servers failing. We've been having routers fail at remote sites that are getting old as well. Each time any of these significant events occurs which have been often lately, we have to put everything else on the back burner and deal with the big problems. Then because we end up a day or two behind at best, sometimes a week or two at worst when we have a series of larger problems - we get our agents starting to complain because their needs are not being met fast enough since we handle repairs of their desktops/notebooks as well - and they are not too great at understanding the prioritization of problems.

  19. Senior Member itdaddy's Avatar
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    #68
    msteinhilber

    yeah, I couldnt believe it and your story. It just sucks how much knowledge it takes to do what we do and then get crapped on. But in your case i will say a prayer for you man.
    I 1200 users 3 guys that is a skeleton crew man! I know your pain really.
    thanks for the words. And yeah what they want you to do programmer, network engineer and tech support holy crap and they wanted me to build (which would have been fun) a program that interfaces with the supplies that the machine used but I just couldnt do it.
    can you imaging programming and then having to maintian when MS$$ does something new.
    I said it ineeds to be full time jobs and what they wanted to pay?? crap! for your soul!
    I am waiting and finishing my schooling and waiting for the right wave!


    robert

  20. Member markk2008's Avatar
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    #69
    I so agree with all of you guys, there is no other day like any other, you have some days where the workload is bearable, and then you have other days where you have about 20 things thrown at you at once and you are expected to cope, especially if you are the only person in the it department.

    It's definitely demanding, but a good challenge at the same time.

  21. Senior Member itdaddy's Avatar
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    #70
    if you have a good boss it almost means everything...i do not have a good boss
    it sucks! i love to keep busy and the more differentthings yes really the more experience you get.

    you can have person A work 4 years IT and have it slow and learn nothing
    you can have person B work 4 years IT and busy as hell and learn everything

    so when I see adds that say 2-3 years experience or 5 years experience and BS degree
    I see a guy who had 10 years IT and is just as good as BS and 5 yers but the world
    is set on the BS and x years. play the game! and win!

  22. Member markk2008's Avatar
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    #71
    I can't believe these people who buy fake certificates, ok, so some of them look very close to the real thing, but I would never think about anything like that, cos if you don't actually have the knowledge to back it up, what's the point in having the certificate in the first place.

  23. Member
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    #72

    Unhappy Everybody's trying to do more with less...

    Everybody's trying to do more with less. I work for a school district that is spread out over 40 miles. We have 10 schools in Chicago and NW Indiana. Next year we plan to run schools in St. Louis, Indianapolis, and South Bend, IN. So far, the managers are trying to do it with existing resources. We have three people in IT. My coworker has 5 schools. I have 5 schools. And the contractor runs PowerSchool (student information system) and maintains websites for the entire district. We have 11 locations, 40 servers, 1200 computers, 550 teachers and staff, and control everything from the demarc to the end user.

    We are always hustling and humping. I really think they will only get us some help if we fail to meet a major deadline such as fail to get report cards out on time or something like that.

    All I can say is take your downtime and don't let them burn you out.

    I have been with the school district going on 6 years and yes I am a twelve month-er no summers off for me.

  24. Senior Member itdaddy's Avatar
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    #73
    Mark

    really? yeah but it is funny how no employeer looks at the issue number when
    i got my CCNA I got a number proving that I am CCNA, I think MS$$ does the same thing
    so a employer can some how look them up adn prove they received the cert. but
    many employers do not do this; I would never do it either but I bet there
    are people out there that never get caught. But me I woudl never do it
    casue when you do get caught you are fired!
    no way rather work my way up and be honest; cause I still believe hard work and being honest will get me somewhere; -- I hope

    seans

    yeah wow! you guys are busy...i guess for you it is al about priorities! huh!
    crunch time
    but think of the experience you are getting invaluable! priceless!

  25. Junior Member
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    #74
    Hey Guys,

    IT entry lever here, been working at a helpdesk for a small software/web developer for about two years, currently working to get my A+ and AS in CompSci by this summer.

    We felt the recent events in my office sadly, as they laid-off 2 of my co-workers and gave myself and my other co-worker pay cuts. Although it sucks, I'm thankful that I was not one of the ones laid off...and it did serve a rude wake up call to get into gear with my education.

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    #75
    I haven't read the whole thread, and maybe I will be regarded as a prick, but I can't believe the amount of complaining by a couple people. Maybe you guys were just having a bad day, I don't know... I don't have as many users as some of you, but I have to do the programming, the systems admin, help incompetent managers with data analysis and THEIR jobs because they lack any sort of quantitative skills, etc. I feel that I am underpaid, and sometimes I get **** upon because expectations are unrealistic about how much I can do in any given day, but the bottom line is that I've also had the opportunity to learn a LOT, and i have been handed a ton of responsability without having to waste away my life in some helpdesk role.

    I got to develop the .net app and sql database that the entire company runs on for everything. I got to put together an asterisk system that handles 5000 calls per day. I got to virtualize all of the servers with Virtual Iron. I got to deploy an iSCSI SAN. Yes, I deal with a lot of ****. I work 100 hour weeks at times (especially when hardware was failing left and right because it was so old a few months ago, or when the power kept failing and screwing up AD because they didn't give me a proper UPS when i asked for it). For 4 months straight I last year I worked 70-100 hrs/wk, WHILE taking 4 classes at university (my university is close to work and I go to and from work during the day). Maybe I am a masochist but I enjoyed this time because i learned a ton during that period. I now have very broad experience. I was able to prove that I could deliver consistent results under pressure, and also to prove that even when i don't know something, I have the brains to learn it. i will get a fantastic recommendation from my boss when I leave because I have been such a go-to guy. This will all help me when looking for my next job. There's a positive side to everything guys.

    My opinion is that if you are awesome, someone will be willing to pay you what you are worth. Some people over-value themselves though. I know MCSEs that can't figure out anything they weren't explicitly taught. There are so many people in IT that decided to go to tech college on a whim because they read the salary reports for a ccna or ccnp, but don't have IT and computer skills in their bones.

    If you're miserable at your job, look for another one. If you're a generalist and sick of it (generalists usually make less money than specialists), figure out what you are most interested in and become really really good at that. Figure out what skills you need to get a better job and LEARN them. There are incredible opportunities for really good IT people. the key word is good. I have met a ton of VERY mediocre IT people, some with lots of certs, but really good people are relatively rare imo. A lot of people learn by rote and lack the ability to think on their own.

    I think that small companies that pay low salaries are actually one of the best places to start an IT career. You get exposure to a lot of different areas and if you're smart you can build experience fast while developing a good reference for the job you really want.

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