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  1. Senior Member neo9006's Avatar
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    #1

    Default Looking to see what the IT people think about this

    Good Afternoon,

    I thought about this and wondered what people thought about this. We have all been hearing about retail and restaurant workers wanting a higher wage. I think that is fair to a degree since I worked retail and understand where they are coming from. But my question is this, do you think it is fair for them to want to get 15.00? Yet I hear people on here say that they are not making alot of money even when doing help desk. It seems I have seen a few posts where they were getting paid less. I was just wondering what people thought about it.
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    #2
    I personally think it's a horrible idea. The point of an entry level job is to gather experience necessary to advance to a more advanced, higher paying position. Increasing the minimum wage on these positions reduces the number of entry level jobs available in the market and works to further devalue the dollar.

    Anyone who works in any entry level position, be it retail, a low scale restaurant or helpdesk, does not deserve to demand a higher wage for low-level work. If you want a company to pay you more then you need to bring more to the table than a entry level skill set.

    Workers at high-scale restaurants, retail managers and advanced IT positions all make some serious money because of the value they're able to bring to the table.
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  4. Self-Described Huguenot blargoe's Avatar
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    #3
    It's fair for them to want whatever they want. That doesn't mean the position is worth what they want.
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    #4
    Since this is specifically about the McDs strikes, I read an article just yesterday showing average costs for the franchisees and how if they suddenly bumped every McDs employee to $15/hr it would shut down most of the stores in the US. This is of course assuming they didn't increase all their prices to compensate, which would effectively shut them down anyway as if they doubled all their prices people would most likely just go to another fast food place.

    I think most people forget that salaries are paid by local franchise owners, not McDs corporate. Saying the CEO makes X so you should get double your pay doesn't really apply.
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  6. Stop,Collaborate + Listen LarryDaMan's Avatar
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    #5
    I say let the free market figure it out. If there are people willing to work for less and fill those spots, then those requesting $15 an hour will have to move on to something else that pays more. While I agree there should be some minimum wage to prevent outright abuse of the lower economic class, I would not want to be a business owner who is mandated to pay higher wages. About 70% or more of new restaurants fail and close within a year, so it is a big risk already.
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  7. Senior Member cyberguypr's Avatar
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    #6
    I saw this headline but didn't read their arguments on why they think they deserve this. Do they need better pay? Possibly. Is $15 the right number? Hell no!

    Two words: entry level. Those jobs are by nature temporary, high turnover jobs. What about the ripple effect? Let's say for a second that they do go to $15/hr base. That means your assistant manager needs to be bumped up. Same for the shift manager, store manager, etc. See a pattern developing? By the time this is said and done everyone working entry level at retail will also want $15/hr. Economics 101: companies will pass most, if not all of, the expense to consumers. Prices for basically everything will inevitably go up. Those workers will be back at square one.
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  8. Self-Described Huguenot blargoe's Avatar
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    #7
    These positions were never designed to be the type that could support a family. 15 years ago primarily high school/college kids and adults working a second job were working in fast food.

    Even if the franchise COULD increase their mininum pay by that amount, they would then turn around and fire many of the existing workers and find more efficient staff that would have an incentive to work at a McDonalds because it pays more then their factory or retail or low level office job.
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  9. Senior Member neo9006's Avatar
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    #8
    I remember my second job I had for 10 years at a local Texas grocery store. I started off at minimum wage. At the time it was 5.65. It took me 6 months working hard to get a nice raise of 2.35 an hour. It was a major difference for me then and helped me survive at the time cause my main job was not cutting it. I agree with one poser said about working hard. As some of stated its entry level. Can you make a living doing it, sure if you are willing to put in the time and bs to get there and if your lucky enough to get into a nice management position, I could have done that probably but in the end I know I would have been miserable doing it. Bringing your skills the table does count, I brought mine and if I stayed with that job till now, I would have hit that 15.00 an hour working part time. When I left i was making 13.96 but it took a lot of hard work to get to that point. I agree they will be back to square one when it is said and done. I understand a little bit more money but everything is eventually passed on to us the consumer. I have worked both retail and fast food. I could not tell you which one was worse working.

    The companies profit here, there and it amazes me how much waste the stores throw away. I think the food that cannot be salvaged as well as theft were the big 2 reasons the store I worked at was not making what it needed too.
    Last edited by neo9006; 09-05-2013 at 09:49 PM.
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  10. Senior Member devils_haircut's Avatar
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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by blargoe View Post
    15 years ago primarily high school/college kids and adults working a second job were working in fast food.
    Exactly. I worked at Walmart while I was in high school (2001-2003), and I remember very clearly that about 90% of the cashiers and sales associates were either high school/college students or the elderly. The people in between usually relied on Walmart as a second source of income.

    There were a few people who thought they could live off a Walmart wage, but they were few and far between. I guess the current economy has pushed a lot of the lower-skilled people into fast food and retail jobs. Still, I disagree with the $15/hr wage for what should be a job for students or retirees.
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    #10
    I think the core of the problem is corporations have outsourced so many good jobs that older people are having to work at McDonalds.
    Those jobs are meant for kids in highschool.

    To rephrase the question, should a highschool kid make $30,000/yr to warm up pre-made hamburgers???
    NO

    The REAL question is as Americans, should we tollerate corporations outsourcing all the jobs and/or lobbying to bring in cheap labor?


    .
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  12. "Too many routers"? Heh. darkerz's Avatar
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    #11
    This is a tricky one.

    Not everyone has a degree or specialty to fall onto in a high-demand market like ours. I am related to and friends of folks who are in their 30's, 40's and 50's who have nothing else to fall onto. Their skills are either obsoleted by technology, or they fell into a vicious poverty trap, or failed education ventures & unwise skill emphasis.

    Unfortunately, if you're disassociated with these every day Americans while in a field that, quite honestly, pays most of us too much or just enough to be comfortable, then something interesting will occur.

    Cognitive Dissonance is a powerful thing, it's a tunneled vision effect of being granted, earning or luckily obtaining opportunity, i.e. financial success.

    Is 15 too much? Probably.

    But you walk into a retail or food services environment today and you will see teenagers, college students, but a growing (alarmingly growing!) number of men and women in their 30's, 40's and 50's who have lost God's grace and are now in an economic dead end & dark pit. We can't nostalgia the past and use that as a base of reference for the human element, the human composure of these industries, that's just ignorance veiled in forms of economic Darwinism.

    My 2 cents, because I remember being on that side of the dissonance.
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  13. Went to the dark side.... Moderator networker050184's Avatar
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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by darkerz View Post
    Not everyone has a degree or specialty to fall onto in a high-demand market like ours.
    Indeed, but whose fault is that? Should these people have their wages raised for making bad decisions in life? I certainly don't think so.
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  14. Senior Member krjay's Avatar
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    #13
    I think it's absolutely ridiculous that they want $15/hr. They earn peanuts for wage because they are expendable. If they walk out the door at any given time, there's an infinite amount of people that can fill that role. If they want more money they need to go learn a skill that makes them valuable.
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  15. Senior Member whatthehell's Avatar
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    #14
    One of my first jobs was when I was in my late teens, working at McD. I was paid $4.25/ hour, which I was quite happy with at the time. Everyone who worked there was in their late teens/early 20s, except for the shift leads and manager, who were in their 30s and 40s.

    I was actually recently thinking about this topic and most of you have said what has been going on in my mind recently. At $15/hr, low-skilled fast food workers would make more than some helpdesk workers, pharmacy techs, Apt Leasing consultants, etc.

    This does not make sense to me at all....it's like saying I don't want to learn anything, but I want double my pay!

    On the other hand, I can also see the point regarding the economy, and have definitely witnessed more and more fast food workers in their 30s and 40s who may have fallen on hard times. I don't know about others, but most of my friends (including myself) have fallen on hard times, and have had to work min wage jobs in between full time jobs (early in my career) to provide for the necessities in life. We all persevered, made do with what we had, but never stopped learning or trying to move up. Sooner or later, we all pulled ourselves out of a difficult time. I hope that those that are stuck with low paying, low skilled jobs keep trying, but I can understand that it is difficult to keep pushing oneself at times. Requesting $15/hr still doesn't make sense to me though, but, in the same regard, I can understand coming from a bad situation and wanting more. I just don't think focusing energy on demand almost double in wages is the answer though. Perhaps some of the fast food companies should provide educational benefits? Give way employee scholarships more often, provide for a class per fiscal quarter, or have management training programs, like Big 5 and Enterprise Rent-a-car have?

    Anyway, interesting thread!
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  16. "Too many routers"? Heh. darkerz's Avatar
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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by networker050184 View Post
    Indeed, but whose fault is that? Should these people have their wages raised for making bad decisions in life? I certainly don't think so.
    I can't say I disagree, It's hard to be ultra critical either way.

    Knowing friends, family and acquaintances in those situations, it's not always so black and white as to why that circumstance was created. Sometimes it's at the fault of the person, sometimes it's not, but it's always complex.

    That being said.

    I, personally, worked my *ass off to get to my position. Endless nights of studying, 2 years of interning and volunteering with little to no pay, eating ramen every night and hoping I could get a chance to make something of myself. Year 3 hit, and I got my foot in the door, and never looked back. Doubled by 13/ hour wage in less than 6 months, it's triple now on year 6 of my IT Networking journey.

    So, there are 2 conflicting viewpoints stirring in my head. On one hand, I am to judge the actions of others, not their person. On the other hand, not all actions, circumstance and timing is enabling, and can be outside of a persons control.

    Tough 'thinking invoked.
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  17. Senior Member neo9006's Avatar
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    #16
    I guess what bothers me sometimes and by no means am I hear to make anyone mad or turn them off is that I feel like asking some people have you been in these people shoes? Some of you know what I am talking about. I have a co worker that has never worked in a restaurant or retail, but yet he is the first one moaning and groaning if his food is not their fast enough and smarting off about it. For someone like that I feel saying then let us throw you in the fire and see how you handle it. I agree with whatthehell, I was in my late 20's when I had to get a second job to make ends meet and survive. I have seen more than my fair share of workers in their 40's or 50' still working where I use to work. Some have been there for like 10+ years. Networker, I understand where your coming from as well, that is the reason I am working on my degree and trying to narrow where to go down the road. I hope things get better.
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  18. Went to the dark side.... Moderator networker050184's Avatar
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    #17
    I think the situations where someone can not better themselves and their career through hard work and sacrifice are very few and far between. Most people do not better themselves due to fear or laziness is the real issue though. Every person I have known that works these types of jobs in their 20s and 30s are there because of poor choices or lack of motivation. I do not feel sorry for these types of people one bit.
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  19. Self-Described Huguenot blargoe's Avatar
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    #18
    Us Americans are spoiled as hell. Take that how you want. "Poverty" in America is a better situation than 99% of what the rest of the world lives every day.

    I agree much of the shift of low skilled workers to fast food and retail is related to the outsourcing of manufacturing to other countries. Corporations and Government are jointly responsible for this. Chicken and egg argument, I'm not sure you can totally blame one as causing the other.

    I also feel that the everyday Joe or Jane, regardless of their life circumstances, has totally lost sight of how to budget properly and live with their means. Think about how accessible credit is compared to a generation ago. Think about every day non-essential items (smartphones, any brand new vehicle or vehicle exceeding one's basic needs, designer clothes, you name it) that many of the people complaining about not being able to make ends meet (not limiting this to fast food workers) are enjoying today.
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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by neo9006 View Post
    Good Afternoon,We have all been hearing about retail and restaurant workers wanting a higher wage.
    Just about every employee wants to make more and just about every employer wants to pay less.

    do you think it is fair for them to want to get 15.00?
    Sure. Wanting something doesn't cost anything and may drive them to improve themselves.

    Should individuals actually be paid that? That depends on what they bring to the table I've known people who worked in restaurants who merited and were paid far more or merited and were paid far less.
    Last edited by NetworkVeteran; 09-06-2013 at 07:04 PM.
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  21. Senior Member diggitle's Avatar
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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by networker050184 View Post
    Indeed, but whose fault is that? Should these people have their wages raised for making bad decisions in life? I certainly don't think so.
    So only those that go to and finish college have made the "right/good" decision in life? The so called "poor" decision making people i.e the 46% that attend but fail to graduate should not be able to have a sustainable life? Isn't there like variables to account for i.e "life."

    Source:
    College Dropout Rate Called National Crisis in New Report | Politic365

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  22. Went to the dark side.... Moderator networker050184's Avatar
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    #21
    Who said anything about college? I don't have a degree and I consider myself successful due to the decisions I have made.
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  23. Senior Member diggitle's Avatar
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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by blargoe View Post
    Us Americans are spoiled as hell. Take that how you want. "Poverty" in America is a better situation than 99% of what the rest of the world lives every day.

    I agree much of the shift of low skilled workers to fast food and retail is related to the outsourcing of manufacturing to other countries. Corporations and Government are jointly responsible for this. Chicken and egg argument, I'm not sure you can totally blame one as causing the other.

    I also feel that the everyday Joe or Jane, regardless of their life circumstances, has totally lost sight of how to budget properly and live with their means. Think about how accessible credit is compared to a generation ago. Think about every day non-essential items (smartphones, any brand new vehicle or vehicle exceeding one's basic needs, designer clothes, you name it) that many of the people complaining about not being able to make ends meet (not limiting this to fast food workers) are enjoying today.
    So because 99% of the world lives worse our problems have no matter? I kid, you've hit the head of the nail.
    Last edited by diggitle; 09-06-2013 at 07:55 PM.
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  24. Senior Member diggitle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by networker050184 View Post
    Who said anything about college? I don't have a degree and I consider myself successful due to the decisions I have made.
    My point is who gave you the ability and wisdom to make choices? Do your choices apply to others situations? Probably not. What environment did you come from growing up? What was your motivation? Etc.. My point is working at McDonalds for someone might have been their successful choice. Just because it's not netting a lot of money doesn't mean its a bad choice. People can only work with what is given to them.

    Everybody has different levels of abilities, aspirations, courage, faith, etc. A paraplegic's goals would be different than an aspiring physics major's. To say the physics major is better than the paraplegics because they will contribute to science mathematics and the paraplegic will be a leech on society is unwise. That paraplegic might inspire somebody that has legs to go out and get a job and pursue career advancement, while the physics major may waste 10-15 years pondering where we come from then be on unemployment. Life is like a box of chocolates you never know what your going to get - Forrest Gump.
    Last edited by diggitle; 09-06-2013 at 07:47 PM.
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  25. Learn it, Do it, Know it! Asif Dasl's Avatar
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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by blargoe View Post
    Us Americans are spoiled as hell. Take that how you want. "Poverty" in America is a better situation than 99% of what the rest of the world lives every day.
    I think you could have put this better, but I'll try not be offended... You forget there are countries which have much higher wages than America (Norway, Luxembourg, Singapore, Hong Kong, Switzerland). [Source]
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  26. Went to the dark side.... Moderator networker050184's Avatar
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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by diggitle View Post
    My point is who gave you the ability and wisdom to make choices? Do your choices apply to others situations? Probably not. What environment did you come from growing up? What was your motivation? Etc..
    I grew up very poor. I don't have one friend from childhood that has made it out to a successful career. My motivation was to not be struggling like my mother was growing up. I have made my fair share of bad decisions as well. I dropped out in the 9th grade. But did I make excuses and settle for a McDonalds job? No, I worked hard and made something of myself. I sacrificed and studied all night and ensured I wouldn't be one of these people that work at McDonalds.

    Quote Originally Posted by diggitle View Post
    My point is working at McDonalds for someone might have been their successful choice. Just because it's not netting a lot of money doesn't mean its a bad choice. People can only work with what is given to them.
    I'm sorry but that is complete BS. I do not buy into that McDonals is a successful choice for anyone (excluding mentally/physically challenged people etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by diggitle View Post
    Life is like a box of chocolates you never know what your going to get - Forrest Gump.
    You get what you work for. Plain and simple.
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