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  1. Senior Member
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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by UnixGeek View Post
    Ubuntu for desktops and laptops, CentOS for most servers, and Debian for low powered servers and embedded devices that I'm not running BSD on.
    Ditto. A lot of people say that Ubuntu is getting a little bloated, but for what I need it for, it runs perfectly fast.
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    #27
    As much as I hate to admit it. . . OpenSUSE. It's the best configured of the distros from a software standpoint, in my opinion. Nearly everything one will need in a box. Problem is, performance of 11.0/11.1 were poky and VMWare gave me fits, so I'm having to use Fedora at home for right now.
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    #28
    Desktops and servers are Gentoo for about 6 years now, but I have some vps with CentOS and Debian to learn about their way of doing things and scripts etc. That gives me Source, RedHat/rpm and Debian/deb based experience
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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by disi View Post
    Desktops and servers are Gentoo for about 6 years now, but I have some vps with CentOS and Debian to learn about their way of doing things and scripts etc. That gives me Source, RedHat/rpm and Debian/deb based experience
    I have heard stories but how steep is the learning curve for a newb to learn/install gentoo?
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  6. Senior Member MentholMoose's Avatar
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    #30
    Quote Originally Posted by knwminus View Post
    I have heard stories but how steep is the learning curve for a newb to learn/install gentoo?
    Some of the problems people run into are common to Linux in general, but handled better by installers for other distributions. For example, other distributions have a "create partitions" section in their installer where they offer reasonable disk partition sizes by default, whereas you have to do it manually on Gentoo, and have to know what are good sizes in the first place. However nowadays if you mess up partitions sizes, it is easy to resize them using the gparted live CD (many Windows-only users are even familiar with this tool).

    I think if you follow the official instructions carefully, you can do it. I wouldn't recommend a newbie follow some blog entry or forum post out there, rather they should use the official docs. The main thing is to take care when configuring Gentoo specific options, especially USE flags and CFLAGS (and *especially* ACCEPT_KEYWORDS, which should be left alone), but really this is just part of following the official instructions. This is where I see a lot of newbies go wrong.

    Another problem is manually configuring the kernel. Any easy solution is to start with a working kernel .config file, such as the one from the running live CD. So from the linux source directory you would do "zcat /proc/config.gz > .config", then "make menuconfig" to make any changes (should only be a few, such as changing drivers), then continue with the instructions.
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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by knwminus View Post
    I have heard stories but how steep is the learning curve for a newb to learn/install gentoo?
    Freaking easy if you use the guide. Just step-by-step. It's a good exercise to do once (and then switch to Ubuntu )
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    #32
    Could you explain, why
    Ubuntu install (x86) without X or anything: ~1000 packages
    Gentoo install (x86) with kernel etc.: ~250 packages
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    #33
    Debian netinstall version for when I need to get a system up fast, I usually add a GUI when required.

    Ubuntu Server is my fave distro to use for a full blown server, easy to setup and easy to use.

    For Home Use and Media I use Linux Mint, Based on Ubuntu, Nice clean layout, Plenty of preconfigured packages to handle all your media needs and again easy to use.

    I also have Mint running on my netbook did have Ubuntu Netbook remix but I just prefer Mint for some strange reason even though they are essentially the same thing lol
    Microsoft's strategy to conquer the I.T industry

    " Embrace, evolve, extinguish "
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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by disi View Post
    Could you explain, why
    Ubuntu install (x86) without X or anything: ~1000 packages
    Gentoo install (x86) with kernel etc.: ~250 packages
    They're targeting different markets. Ubuntu is going after people who want a functional system out of the box without a lot of customization. Gentoo is targetting people who love customizing their systems.
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  11. Senior Member MentholMoose's Avatar
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    #35
    Quote Originally Posted by disi View Post
    Could you explain, why
    Ubuntu install (x86) without X or anything: ~1000 packages
    Gentoo install (x86) with kernel etc.: ~250 packages
    The packages of Gentoo aren't directly comparable to those of other distributions, including Ubuntu. Gentoo has USE flags, so when you enable a USE flag to add a feature, it is included in the package when it is built. With Ubuntu and similar distributions, adding a feature means adding a package, so if those features are included by default, it will add to the package count.

    A simple example is the program "Liferea", an RSS reader. On Fedora, you have the base package for it and an additional package that adds webkit support (via a single library file):
    liferea.i386 : An RSS/RDF feed reader
    liferea-WebKit.i386 : WebKit support for Liferea

    With Gentoo, webkit support is specified via a USE flag on the package and the extra library will just be included:
    [ebuild N ] net-news/liferea-1.4.28-r1 USE="dbus gnutls webkit xulrunner -debug -gtkhtml -libnotify -lua -networkmanager" 1,658 kB

    I don't know exactly what is causing the huge different in package quantity, but I think a big contributor could be localization files. With Gentoo, you specify which languages you want (e.g. using LINGUAS), and they will often be included in the base package, whereas with other distributions you have additional packages for every language. I suspect Ubuntu may be installing a bunch of localization files by default.
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    #36
    I have a desktop with Kubuntu
    A Netbook with Eeebuntu
    and for servers I swear by CentOS.
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  13. Senior Member exampasser's Avatar
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    #37
    I like Fedora 11, but like other distros it's a pain to install programs without an Internet connect (don't have an internet connection on that machine yet). I love getting the missing dependencies error . . .
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    #38
    MentholMoose that is not totally correct...

    Gentoo uses ebuilds and in those "installscripts" it checks if a certain feature is requested via USE flag. If it is, the package is ./configured with the support AND all needed dependencies are solved by installing the nessecary additional packages. Every dependency counts as a package.

    Let say you install the system and don't want X, you can use -X as USE flag. From now on every ebuild will not install GUI dependencies (like an X server etc.).

    It also uses predefined USE flags via profiles. lets say you want to set up a desktop, then you choose the current 10.0 desktop profile and have a lot of X depending USE flags. For a hardened server you get only totally stable and secure packages+USE flags and no X etc.

    I agree in Unbuntu all those choices are done for you automatically, which is not a bad thing either for most users.

    This ends up in distro wars, which is useless as mentioned before that it's the choice or need of the user/service that makes the decision.

    My question was more why "installing Gentoo is a nice experience and then you switch to Ubuntu."?

    //edit: little example:
    networkmanager-0.8.0_pre20091105

    those packages are at least needed for networkworkmanager to work:
    >=sys-apps/dbus-1.2
    >=dev-libs/dbus-glib-0.75
    >=net-wireless/wireless-tools-28_pre9
    >=sys-fs/udev-145[extras]
    >=dev-libs/glib-2.16
    >=sys-auth/polkit-0.92
    >=dev-libs/libnl-1.1
    >=net-misc/modemmanager-0.2
    >=net-wireless/wpa_supplicant-0.5.10[dbus]
    if you want bluetooth support, this package is needed:
    bluetooth?
    ( net-wireless/bluez )

    ||
    ( sys-libs/e2fsprogs-libs <sys-fs/e2fsprogs-1.41.0 )
    if you want avahi support this package is needed:
    avahi?
    ( net-dns/avahi[autoipd] )

    etc.

    of course has the package "bluez" also an ebuild, which might require more packages to be installed...

    //edit: and I found this one: http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7574/1/
    A benchmark for Gentoo with different optimization levels against Ubuntu. Technically you can use any Os, O2 or O3 and cannot be slower than Ubuntu. *sorry
    Last edited by disi; 11-25-2009 at 12:25 PM.
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  15. Senior Member MentholMoose's Avatar
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    #39
    Enabling features with USE flags indeed will pull in extra dependencies. However, enabling features on other distributions will also pull in those dependencies, plus in many cases additional app-specific package(s), thus inflating the package count compared to Gentoo. So for Liferea, enabling webkit on Gentoo would only pull in some webkit libraries, whereas on Fedora it will pull in those libraries, plus the Liferea-specific webkit package.

    I don't have a Ubuntu server install available, but I do happen to have an openSUSE server. There are some packages that are split like I suggested, e.g. six CUPS-related packages are installed whereas on my Gentoo desktop there is only one. Overall the effect isn't tremendous but does exist. There don't seem to be many localization-related packages, though.

    One big contributor to the package count is actually the package manager yast... I have over 60 yast-related packages on my openSUSE install!! There are many other openSUSE-specific packages, too (20 packages with "suse" in the name). Gentoo has distribution-specific packages, too, but I think it's much less (portage, baselayout, a few eselect, gentoolkit if you want it, etc.).

    There are also some packages that don't really need to be there, like bluetooth libraries and various audio-related packages. As you mention, with Gentoo these things (and many more) can be left out easily by setting USE flags and choosing the right profile, whereas they seem to be installed by default on openSUSE.

    Regarding your question about why switch, I don't know, I use Gentoo.

    EDIT: thanks for the benchmark link.
    Last edited by MentholMoose; 11-25-2009 at 06:07 PM.
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    #40
    Quote Originally Posted by exampasser View Post
    I like Fedora 11, but like other distros it's a pain to install programs without an Internet connect (don't have an internet connection on that machine yet). I love getting the missing dependencies error . . .
    Whats really fun is when you finally find the rpm for the dependency, and then that has dependancies it needs.
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  17. Cyber Ninja L0gicB0mb508's Avatar
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    #41
    Quote Originally Posted by abefroman View Post
    Whats really fun is when you finally find the rpm for the dependency, and then that has dependancies it needs.
    RPM!? Isn't that something an engine does!? Install from source you panzy!
    Yeah I'm just kidding. I couldn't help myself
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  18. Senior Member exampasser's Avatar
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    #42
    Quote Originally Posted by abefroman View Post
    Whats really fun is when you finally find the rpm for the dependency, and then that has dependancies it needs.
    That's happened to me.
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  19. Senior Member exampasser's Avatar
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    #43
    Quote Originally Posted by L0gicB0mb508 View Post
    RPM!? Isn't that something an engine does!? Install from source you panzy!
    Yeah I'm just kidding. I couldn't help myself
    I tried installing from source but I need GCC so when I tried to install the GCC rpm I got more missing dependencies. . .
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    #44
    Quote Originally Posted by exampasser View Post
    I tried installing from source but I need GCC so when I tried to install the GCC rpm I got more missing dependencies. . .
    well you pwnd me
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  21. Senior Member exampasser's Avatar
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    #45
    Well I now have an internet connection for my linux machine and not the add/remove software in Fedora has as status of "waiting in queue" . . . when I try to update/install software via yum I sometimes get the error saying its being used by another process and have to reboot the machine. I assume this has something to do with the add/remove software not working.
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  22. linux addict marco71's Avatar
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    #46
    Quote Originally Posted by exampasser View Post
    Well I now have an internet connection for my linux machine and not the add/remove software in Fedora has as status of "waiting in queue" . . . when I try to update/install software via yum I sometimes get the error saying its being used by another process and have to reboot the machine. I assume this has something to do with the add/remove software not working.
    linux does need a reboot only when add a new kernel or a new hardware ... it is not windoze
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  23. Audentis Fortuna Iuvat veritas_libertas's Avatar
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    #47
    Quote Originally Posted by abefroman View Post
    Whats really fun is when you finally find the rpm for the dependency, and then that has dependancies it needs.
    That is why I can't stand Linux. Actually it's not so much that, I just don't have time to play with it right now... Down the line maybe...
    Currently working on: Resting
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    #48
    Quote Originally Posted by 120nm4n View Post
    Ditto. A lot of people say that Ubuntu is getting a little bloated, but for what I need it for, it runs perfectly fast.
    Having used the latest Ubuntu I wouldn't say it is bloated, especially since it is faster than the last release...

    Anyone tried Ubuntu One yet?
    https://one.ubuntu.com/
    Currently working on: Resting
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  25. Member Northbr1dge's Avatar
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    #49
    Quote Originally Posted by disi View Post
    Desktops and servers are Gentoo for about 6 years now, but I have some vps with CentOS and Debian to learn about their way of doing things and scripts etc. That gives me Source, RedHat/rpm and Debian/deb based experience
    That's the first time I've seen the almighty "Unfakeable" Linux mentioned in the thread, even if it is just in reference. Is there a reason why Red Hat isn't more popular amongst you guys, instead of Fedora and CentOS? Besides cost, that is.

    Back on track, I really want to like Fedora, I really do. I ALWAYS have issues installing simple things like swfdec / flash, to the point I get frustrated and reinstall Ubuntu. I attribute that mostly to *nix inexperience though
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    #50
    I prefer Ubuntu. I was a long-time Windows user, and switched to Ubuntu when I ran out of keys for my XP disk, and was too cheap to buy a fresh copy. I had already played with Ubuntu for a year or so on my laptop (secondary system), but it was still kind of a leap to switch from windows to linux as my full-time OS. So far, I'm happy. I don't see myself going back to windows, although I will probably purchase a laptop in the future and have it run windows for traveling purposes.
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